1 Topic by Segreto (edited by Segreto 2011-08-25 18:10:45)

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Topic: Dual /Duel We need it.

Yea, there is older thread from 2010, and it is dusty.

PVP right now is boring or short or long and boring.  There needs to be a duel system in the game.  And it needs three options.

1.  1vs1 Duel to the death.  Bam  It's over.  Great. 
2.  1vs1 duel to the almost death and then end.  Let us practice and keep our bots.
3.  Squad vs. sqaud with the same two options as above.

I don't know why this is not in this pvp game already.  Yea, it is pvp light, but it's pvp, and it is fun.

Unless I am fighting for territory or something else...
I don't want to pvp in a cheap bot with cheap stuff and die a cheap death.
I don't want to pvp in an expensive bot and beat someone in a cheap bot or lose to someone in any bot and have to buy a new expensive bot.

I do want to PVP, and I have the resources to do so now without getting free stuff from my corp or having to grind nic to buy more bots, but I don't want to do it with the present system.  Unless I am defending or attacking for resources, there really isnt a reason to.

I see no reason or honor in blowing up a termis and a seq and calling it pvp.  I see no reason to go on a roam if I'm going to spend an hour looking to get killed or to blow up a termis and a seq.

Two months ago, I remember members from my corp, who left to go to pvp corps, posting in chat their Termis kills.  Wow.  As a new player, pvp looked less exciting than mining Titan on Alpha islands. 

After reading the forums for a couple of months, I see that pvp is more than blowing up that stranded Seq and has some awesome potention for incursions, but little else looks good.

Unless I am wrong and am just missing something that someone else is doing, and having a good time doing it, I think the duel system must be implemented. 

Let me duel a bit.  It wont hurt anyone and it's a good feature for new players.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

Let me count your duel system with this suggest i was thinking of last night while running my last transport mission:

Instead of dueling outside in the game world, What about a Instance Simulator that was based on the terminal.

So if you and i go to Truhold Alpha we fit out bots and instead of hitting the deploy button and going out the feild we can bring up a menu that lets us hit a simulate button and that puts us in a low tech wire frame arena where what ever your active with is copied in and then  blown up at your pleasure.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

I like that idea, but I also like the idea of others being able to watch.. but for the squad vs squad a deathmatch chamber would be cool.

4 Reply by Zekk (edited by Zekk 2011-08-25 23:48:05)

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

I agree with the OP. Dueling is a great way to test and practice your PVP skills, and its much more convenient than spending hours roaming beta only to be blobbed, and not get to practice your skills.

We can already flag ourselves on alpha for pvp, so challenging someone to a duel should be like flagging ourselves for pvp for a certain individual only.

SWG had a great dueling system, the devs should look into that.

It might be asking too much from the devs to ask for the OP's second option though..to duel untill "near" death.  That should be agreed on by the duelers and its just the risk you take to fight 1 vs 1.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

From a non corp member point of view, it might take 2-3 hours to make enough nic to buy a decent pvp bot.  Who would want to lose that in a duel?  I think the no lose bot option is a must if new player pvp is to take place, or for any leary pvp players to want to try.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

A virtual PVP environment would be nice as I've suggested it a long time ago however I believe this would lead to see even less PvP in the open world.
PvP without consequence is not always healthy for a game based on PvP with consequences.

I do however thing that there should be an area or a way to allow two people to duel each other without locking them out of outposts or allowing anyone to talk up and blow their brains out.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

So, really Perp PVP isn't really all that 'fast paced' key mashing action type of PVP. There's certainly skill in timing and terrain, but not a lot of move/counter move.

Its like playing blackjack for fun versus playing for money. Whens there little at stake you'll hit on 18 or split 10's, beause there's nothing to lose.

In a free-bot arena, once the 'novelty' of it wears off, without stakes it will get boring. Worse than that, is your not actually going to get real PVP experience because people will hit the 18, that is do things they wouldn't normally do if they have 3 days of NIC grinding on the line.

The counter to that then, is to add some kind of prize to it, or a score board... and now you've just changed the whole dynamic of the game by putting in totally risk free rewards and split the pvp player base. Join Beta Corp? Why, to just sit on a gate for 3 days, I can PVP in the arena whenever I want and earn prizes.

Risk free PVP without rewards becomes boring, unused, and a significant waste of programming time and cheapens the game, Risk free PVP with rewards splits the player base. Lose-lose either way.

8 Reply by Goblin (edited by Goblin 2011-08-26 07:57:50)

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

I have said this since launch. So much fun to be had with a duel system. No real way to test pvp mechanics otherwise as a new without a high risk of death.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

A. if you want to Dual, take that person and head to a beach somewhere out of a traffic area flag up and go at it.
B.This simulation PVP area will ruin free world pvp no questions asked and whats gonna stop someone with early access account from ruining everyones light bot 1v1 tourneys?

I'm all for a Dual system but its already in game with the flagging mechanics just gotta know where to do it.

Participate, Congratulate cause everything else will be seen as HATE.
Max yellow max all skills lvl 10 min max for the win
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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

Khader Khan wrote:

A. if you want to Dual, take that person and head to a beach somewhere out of a traffic area flag up and go at it.
B.This simulation PVP area will ruin free world pvp no questions asked and whats gonna stop someone with early access account from ruining everyones light bot 1v1 tourneys?

I'm all for a Dual system but its already in game with the flagging mechanics just gotta know where to do it.

Are you dumb? The duel system would allow two people to duke it out for fun without interference. The current system is where you flag up and can be destroyed by randoms.

11 Reply by Khader Khan (edited by Khader Khan 2011-08-26 10:59:23)

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

Goblin wrote:

Are you dumb?

Already with the insults? Ok [redacted].... Learn to go to a low traffic area before Flagging or have some friends waiting as back up. I've spent over 3 hours PVP flagged training with our corp and others. We were sitting under the Outpost for most of it. Yeah you will die if you flag up at the TP or the Terminal ofc some one will interupt. Go back to wow if you want to dual.

Participate, Congratulate cause everything else will be seen as HATE.
Max yellow max all skills lvl 10 min max for the win
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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

I don't think a PVP arena or instance would fit the game.  But to make it possible to challenge someone to a duel on alpha should not have any game breaking effects and it should be pretty easy for the Devs to implement. There should be no rewards for pvp challenges also.

I know you can go off to some beach and flag, but setting up a match like that is kind of too much trouble to go through for both parties.

Plus it's fun watching people duel. big_smile

13 Reply by Segreto (edited by Segreto 2011-08-26 18:44:06)

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

Khader Khan wrote:

Go back to wow if you want to dual.

See, that is what I want the system to get away from..  Sure, it's a sandbox game, but the game should involve aspects of human behaviors.   If a person wants to fight, and fight to get better at it  and maybe for a bit of status, he's not going to jump random people on the bus and hope for the best.  A system that involves training, tactics, and not losing everything in a fight is needed.  People with a pvp instinct in real life enter into duels all the time, and they dont have to run away somewhere private to do it, nor do they have risk to losing everything.

And there is risk in dueling pvp.  You might lose.  Why do we  need more than that in every part of a the game?  I still play poker with my friends and family for chips and I still go to Vegas and play for real money. I don'tthink Vegas is going to suffer because I beat my Dad in a game of Texas Hold em.  And Perpetuum won't lose players if they add a real duel system.

What's more honorable?  I just popped Segreto as he was drunk driving his Seq to the teleport on Hokk or I dueled Segreto  Tyro vs Tyro  and won.  Unless my corp is doing an intrusion, the former is all the pvp I'm going to see right now.  I don't plan on roaming for 2 hours to pop a termis and I wont camp a stupid teleport gate like a some posturing dork who broadcasts their 3 vs 1 kills like he really means something in the world.

And this is the request section, so please don't bash actual players for posting request and tell them to go back to WOW.  That cheapens any arguement and turns away from actual progress.  Progress that might make the game a better game.  And I think that is what we all should want...well, not the dude camping the teleport, I guess.

Edit:  Spelling...and I'm a damn English teacher.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

Seg- PVP drives the market. Losing bots in the learning curve is where I make a lot of my NIC, by selling replacements. Putting something like this in the game has larger reaching impact then just on the PVP side of the game. The devs are making it less expensive for players to blow up bots, by removing the espitium from T1 items. And as I pointed out, what makes PVP in this game so exciting is the immenint threat of losing something valuable. Being able to simply thrown down with no downside will quickly kill open world PVP, and then when the duel gets boring and those players acutally go out looking for open PVP, there won't be anyone there. Not even carebears mining to be ganked, because there's no market so no need to play.

tl;dr - 62nd had months of open tournaments that were succesful and a LOT of fun during the last iceage. Open world arena's do work, they just take effort on the part of players to arrange them and get paricipation; which is the quintessential power and weakness of the sandbox.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

honestly i think a simulator wouldn't break immersion from a stand point, logically the Nia's are a synthetic race they have intelligence and a logical though process and in that though process you would figure they would find it in-efficient to test something by building it first instead it could be done in a simulator.

if the humans figured out how access the API for the terminal simulator they could then upload there own simulations or even do a real time simulation. which would probably come with spectators.

That has plenty of logic,lore and back story to support this.

you can even add a cost to it so its not free, lower the cost with your relation to the combat factions.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

I was sort of waiting for someone to say, charge for it.

That still doesn't add the risk of loss to the arena, it simply a known entry fee. And adds the expectation of some type of reward, which would simply give them more incentive to do arean instead of open world PVP. It generates a NIC sink, but doesn't help the market, so doesn't address the industrialist issue.

People want arena's because open world PVP doesn't support the casual PVP due to low population, and all the suggestions about how to make arena's work miss the real issue, which is the need to fix open world PVP. Creating a virtual arena as a 'short-term' fix until the population increases seems like a tremendous waste of programming resouces that could be applied to the real problem. The problem here is that short term fix will become the entire PVP game, because it will be fruitless roaming the empty open world when you can get a quick-pvp-fix in the arena. And then Perp becomes just another PVP arena game and not a sandbox.

Want a duel mode - cool. But it has to happen in the open world and be consentual. If the other player accepts your offer to duel, then you become flagged only to each other. Done. No special non-death, no ingame duel finder, just a way for 2 players to fight without globally flagging. There's an arena already built, players interested in dueling can gather there.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

I think the pvp'rs that are  willing to lose a bot and buy a new one for pvp are different animals than the ones that will pvp in a dueling system; however, I think there is a greater chance for one to try dueling and then enter into bot-destruction pvp after they have had a few practice rounds.  Anyway, thats just what I think, I have no clue how it would effect an entire system.  I can only say that I would duel but right now I would not pvp as the game is.  Even if it was a bot losing duel, its still better than the mechanic they have in place now. 

Now, if there was a Fight Club or sorts where I didnt have to travel to the outskirts to battle, then that might be cool to try.  I think fighting other players is essential to this game, and there really isn't a lot of it going on right now. 

I don't have a response for your industry standpoint, but what you said is most likely very true and the reason why the duel system is not implemented.  Perhaps after a couple of weeks when I have more nic and don't have to rely on corp donations, I will risk a bit more by pvp'ing, but every new player is going to be in the same boat I am in right now:  Is it worth the 2 hours or more of grinding for nic to enter into a pvp matchup that is more than likely lopsided and will end with a loss of my bot and make me go back and grind again to get a new one. 

Right now, I have 100million nic, 6 wasps and 2 mk2 wasps set aside for pvp and pve.  Losing a wasp is no big deal, but would it really be worth it?  I don't pretend to be anything more than a new player questioning the benefits and risks of pvp, and, as a new player, I wont pretend to think that I will win a substantial number of times when first trying. I want to work things out, figure tactics, use different builds.. but right now I could possibly do all that and lose everything I have in a weekend. 

On the other hand, I have no problem losing a few bots to attacking or defending an outpost, but that's not happening right now.  Perhaps, in time, it will, but there is  a fierce urgency of now.  Too many people leaving, posting about the pvp state of the game, and applauding their  Argano kills.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

There you have me at a loss. I have no personal knowledge of what drives most players to particiapte in PVP, well actually I have an idea, its the same thing the drives a blackJack player, where $5 bets are fun at first, but eventually they need to risk more and more, even though the % of reward doesn't change.

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Re: Dual /Duel We need it.

I don't remember what it was in Eve that made me pvp all the time.  I think it was just the fact that I was going to be able to do something in battle and knowing full well that there would be viable targets to fight against, even if I had no idea what the over all odds were.  Here, I feel no pull towards it.  Perhaps it is just because of the infancy of the game.  But if they implemented anything into the game I think the worse that could happen is what you mentioned above about the effects on industry, and then they would just simply have to remove it or change it. 

I'll be roaming more now since I hit my nic goal, and perhaps my views will change.  One thing is for sure:  the game itself is great.  I can't see leaving any time soon.