Topic: Lightweight frame

T1-T4 lightweight-frame parameters do not scale logically.

T1/2 starts with lowest mass reduction but highest penalties
t3 and t4 got better mass reduction but decreasing penalties

the negative demob resist and armor reduction should increase with the lower mass of your robots mainframe.

(similar to armor repair: t4 has better AP/HP efficiency, but does still take more AP per cycle then a T1)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Lightweight frame

Yeah, I'd have to agree with you on this one.  Still, the difference is pretty small (22.5% and 25%) so I never really even noticed it, but it makes sense.

The armor hit points can stay the same.  It would be the difference of using much stronger and lighter materials.  You get less weight but can still get greater structural integrity.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Lightweight frame

Yeah good point. Also Devs stated that LWF is getting a nerf in some other thread (+15% speed increase for T4) while also buffing base speeds of bots. Should be good.

This is my blob. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Re: Lightweight frame

It's working as intended. Expensive higher lvl items have bigger bonus, along with lesser penalty in cases that apply, in most mmos. Eve, which this game borrowed heavily from, use the same system, so it's no surprise. It's widely used and tested system that avoids unnecessary balancing issues, since you don't end up with higher items being inferior to lower ones.

Re: Lightweight frame

Sabre906 wrote:

It's working as intended. Expensive higher lvl items have bigger bonus, along with lesser penalty in cases that apply.

I thought in Perp only T2 had lesser penalties/requirements, and T3/T4 had higher bonuses coupled with higher penalties/requirements?

6 (edited by Shaedys 2011-07-14 08:33:24)

Re: Lightweight frame

Higher bonuses with higher requirements and less penalties.
If you change the LWF your going to have to change the stabilisers and a lot of other things as well.

Re: Lightweight frame

I dont like situation with lwf, because lwf now is like "musthave" module. For now, one leg slot is most probably used by lwf, what is not good for perpetuum.

Options to fix situation imo:

1. Increase lwf HP penaltie twice.

2. Increase robots base speed, and decrease mass reduction of lwf.

3. Remove lwf from game, increase base speed of robots, increase speed nexus effect.

4. Remove lwf from game, add ability to speed up using accumulator.

Re: Lightweight frame

Alexadar wrote:

I dont like situation with lwf, because lwf now is like "musthave" module. For now, one leg slot is most probably used by lwf, what is not good for perpetuum.

Options to fix situation imo:

1. Increase lwf HP penaltie twice.

2. Increase robots base speed, and decrease mass reduction of lwf.

3. Remove lwf from game, increase base speed of robots, increase speed nexus effect.

4. Remove lwf from game, add ability to speed up using accumulator.

They already told us what they'll do. It's point 2: Increase robots base speed, and decrease mass reduction of lwf.

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Re: Lightweight frame

Shaedys wrote:

Higher bonuses with higher requirements and less penalties.
If you change the LWF your going to have to change the stabilisers and a lot of other things as well.

sure there is other equipment that has similar imbalanced progression - like t4 weaponary has not enough increased mass compared to t3.

about the lwf - either the penalty is always the same across all tiers, or the penalty does slightly increase but not as much as the advantage.

if both bonus and penalty is better on higher tier equip, then there is absolutely no reason to use the lower tiers, (in case of the lwf, not even the T2 has use) and only multiplies with the already high advantage of veterans extensionwise.

if you compare the DPS + HPpS of a fully t4 fitted veteran with a similar t1/2 fitted rookie, you can see that the vet has not a slight advantage... he has more then double the advantage...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Lightweight frame

Even if they increase base speed of bots, and nerf LWF, people will still use LWF. As long as there is a module to increase speed, people will use it.

Only option is to change LWF into a totally different type of module, you can't just remove it from the game, but you could change it to do some other effect than speed increase.

Re: Lightweight frame

Pak wrote:
Alexadar wrote:

I dont like situation with lwf, because lwf now is like "musthave" module. For now, one leg slot is most probably used by lwf, what is not good for perpetuum.

Options to fix situation imo:

1. Increase lwf HP penaltie twice.

2. Increase robots base speed, and decrease mass reduction of lwf.

3. Remove lwf from game, increase base speed of robots, increase speed nexus effect.

4. Remove lwf from game, add ability to speed up using accumulator.

They already told us what they'll do. It's point 2: Increase robots base speed, and decrease mass reduction of lwf.

It's not that LWF is must have, but rather speed itself is must have. If you mess up LWF by introducing something stupid, like large hp penalty, then the mech with the fastest innate speed in game will be the next "must have," then everyone and their mother will crosstrain to blue. This sounds pretty much like a whine from people who can't afford t4 lwf.

Re: Lightweight frame

I think in this case, it's more that because everyone has to use LWF, it means that demob becomes the defacto counter fit. If there was only a slight advantage to the LWF, in some non-roam situations, it would be possible to forgo the LWF and make L-demob have less impact on the outcome.

13 (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-14 20:46:37)

Re: Lightweight frame

Just change LWF completely. It no longer gives a speedboost, instead, it gives you huge resist vs demobs, no longer gives hp penalty.

Or, it gives you immunity vs demobs, but still gives hp penalty.

Re: Lightweight frame

Sabre906 wrote:

It's working as intended. Expensive higher lvl items have bigger bonus, along with lesser penalty in cases that apply, in most mmos. Eve, which this game borrowed heavily from, use the same system, so it's no surprise. It's widely used and tested system that avoids unnecessary balancing issues, since you don't end up with higher items being inferior to lower ones.

Factually incorrect. In Eve, t2 gear has much higher fitting requirements in return for better performance than t1. T1 meta 1-4 mods are mostly easier to fit rather than better quality. Meta mods are not preferred for pvp except when attempting to make secondary gear work in a fit (so a m4 medium neut is fine, but m4 guns are absolutely NOT a replacement for t2 guns).

This game generally sees bonuses increasing and penalties decreasing when moving up the tech levels. I don't like that; it means that t4 mods strongly dominate when fitting choices are made, removing the strategy aspect (which mods am I willing to downgrade so that I can fit the important ***?).

Re: Lightweight frame

AeonThePiglet wrote:
Sabre906 wrote:

It's working as intended. Expensive higher lvl items have bigger bonus, along with lesser penalty in cases that apply, in most mmos. Eve, which this game borrowed heavily from, use the same system, so it's no surprise. It's widely used and tested system that avoids unnecessary balancing issues, since you don't end up with higher items being inferior to lower ones.

Factually incorrect. In Eve, t2 gear has much higher fitting requirements in return for better performance than t1. T1 meta 1-4 mods are mostly easier to fit rather than better quality. Meta mods are not preferred for pvp except when attempting to make secondary gear work in a fit (so a m4 medium neut is fine, but m4 guns are absolutely NOT a replacement for t2 guns).

This game generally sees bonuses increasing and penalties decreasing when moving up the tech levels. I don't like that; it means that t4 mods strongly dominate when fitting choices are made, removing the strategy aspect (which mods am I willing to downgrade so that I can fit the important ***?).

T4 mods here takes more cpu and reactor to fit, same as in Eve. T4 lwf here gives more bonus and less drawback than t1, same as nano structure in Eve. Moving from t1-t4 here means more bonus and less drawback, but more fitting requirement. Moving from t1-t2 in Eve means more bonus and less drawback, but more fitting requirement. I don't see the difference. This is also the case in other mmos, as is the whine from those who can't reach the grapes. tongue

Re: Lightweight frame

Sabre906 wrote:

T4 mods here takes more cpu and reactor to fit, same as in Eve. T4 lwf here gives more bonus and less drawback than t1, same as nano structure in Eve. Moving from t1-t4 here means more bonus and less drawback, but more fitting requirement. Moving from t1-t2 in Eve means more bonus and less drawback, but more fitting requirement. I don't see the difference. This is also the case in other mmos, as is the whine from those who can't reach the grapes. tongue

What you said:

Sabre906 wrote:

It's working as intended. Expensive higher lvl items have bigger bonus, along with lesser penalty in cases that apply, in most mmos. Eve, which this game borrowed heavily from, use the same system, so it's no surprise. It's widely used and tested system that avoids unnecessary balancing issues, since you don't end up with higher items being inferior to lower ones.

Trenchant part of my reply:

AeonThePiglet wrote:

Factually incorrect. In Eve, t2 gear has much higher fitting requirements in return for better performance than t1. T1 meta 1-4 mods are mostly easier to fit rather than better quality. Meta mods are not preferred for pvp except when attempting to make secondary gear work in a fit (so a m4 medium neut is fine, but m4 guns are absolutely NOT a replacement for t2 guns).

This game generally sees bonuses increasing and penalties decreasing when moving up the tech levels. I don't like that; it means that t4 mods strongly dominate when fitting choices are made, removing the strategy aspect (which mods am I willing to downgrade so that I can fit the important ***?).

You'll note that my focus in the not bolded part of the reply is on increasing the number of interesting decision points when fitting rather than the newbie experience. Assuming I have all the gear handed to me free I have no reason, fitting wise, to use anything other than t4.

In eve, even with AWU4 (damn near no one gets 5) and max (other) fitting skills, when fitting a cane out for combat I need to fit a couple of meta mods, or downgrade the size class of a couple of the utility items to keep them t2. This was an interesting decision. Here, bigger tier better gear, never ever downgrade.

Now, if you're seriously going to accuse me of whining because I can't get *** RAT NAOW, I'ma have to ask you kindly to stuff it. Been playing Eve for years, and I consistently argued for improving the newbie experience and giving them a better shot at winning because, unlike you, I neither need nor want leet gear to win. I want a just out the gate newbie to be competitive because I understand that that's the best way to get people playing and fighting. It also means fewer boring *** fights where I stomp somebody, and more awesome fights where I'm flying by the seat of my pants and just barely keeping ahead or, better yet, just barely losing.

I'm not gonna stop *** about the delta between newbie gear and vet gear just because I end up with a pile of it myself. Which I will. Our indy guys are that good. I'll stop when I see that newbies are able to get to vet quality gear in a week or so, and that after that they're adding OPTIONS rather than bonuses. Options. Those are the fun thing. +1 to laser range, lame. A new way to engage? Awesome.

Re: Lightweight frame

AeonThePiglet wrote:
Sabre906 wrote:

T4 mods here takes more cpu and reactor to fit, same as in Eve. T4 lwf here gives more bonus and less drawback than t1, same as nano structure in Eve. Moving from t1-t4 here means more bonus and less drawback, but more fitting requirement. Moving from t1-t2 in Eve means more bonus and less drawback, but more fitting requirement. I don't see the difference. This is also the case in other mmos, as is the whine from those who can't reach the grapes. tongue

What you said:

Sabre906 wrote:

It's working as intended. Expensive higher lvl items have bigger bonus, along with lesser penalty in cases that apply, in most mmos. Eve, which this game borrowed heavily from, use the same system, so it's no surprise. It's widely used and tested system that avoids unnecessary balancing issues, since you don't end up with higher items being inferior to lower ones.

Trenchant part of my reply:

AeonThePiglet wrote:

Factually incorrect. In Eve, t2 gear has much higher fitting requirements in return for better performance than t1. T1 meta 1-4 mods are mostly easier to fit rather than better quality. Meta mods are not preferred for pvp except when attempting to make secondary gear work in a fit (so a m4 medium neut is fine, but m4 guns are absolutely NOT a replacement for t2 guns).

This game generally sees bonuses increasing and penalties decreasing when moving up the tech levels. I don't like that; it means that t4 mods strongly dominate when fitting choices are made, removing the strategy aspect (which mods am I willing to downgrade so that I can fit the important ***?).

You'll note that my focus in the not bolded part of the reply is on increasing the number of interesting decision points when fitting rather than the newbie experience. Assuming I have all the gear handed to me free I have no reason, fitting wise, to use anything other than t4.

In eve, even with AWU4 (damn near no one gets 5) and max (other) fitting skills, when fitting a cane out for combat I need to fit a couple of meta mods, or downgrade the size class of a couple of the utility items to keep them t2. This was an interesting decision. Here, bigger tier better gear, never ever downgrade.

Now, if you're seriously going to accuse me of whining because I can't get *** RAT NAOW, I'ma have to ask you kindly to stuff it. Been playing Eve for years, and I consistently argued for improving the newbie experience and giving them a better shot at winning because, unlike you, I neither need nor want leet gear to win. I want a just out the gate newbie to be competitive because I understand that that's the best way to get people playing and fighting. It also means fewer boring *** fights where I stomp somebody, and more awesome fights where I'm flying by the seat of my pants and just barely keeping ahead or, better yet, just barely losing.

I'm not gonna stop *** about the delta between newbie gear and vet gear just because I end up with a pile of it myself. Which I will. Our indy guys are that good. I'll stop when I see that newbies are able to get to vet quality gear in a week or so, and that after that they're adding OPTIONS rather than bonuses. Options. Those are the fun thing. +1 to laser range, lame. A new way to engage? Awesome.

T4 does require more cpu/reactor to fit. So for all that wall of text, you're just saying cpu/reactor of bots should be gimped so they can't fit all t4? Once that's done, noobs who don't have lvl10 of a dozen fitting skills won't even be able to fit t1. roll

This still sounds like a whine. Why don't we all just run around in arkhes? There's nothing wrong with people fitting t4. There is something wrong with your method of thinking. Instead of elevating yourself, you want everyone else to discard their gear and come down to your level. That's not going to happen.

tl;dr - I can't afford/don't want to risk t4, thus, it should be gimped so that nobody can use it.

Re: Lightweight frame

Being a poor noob myself I have no idea if what Aeon is saying is true, but if it is, that is an issue. The Drawback of T3/T4 is higher fitting requirements, part of the purpose of those higher fitting requirements is to restrict full T4 fits, forcing you to make a decision on what to downgrade, if that doesn't happen then T4 is just straight out better, its 'Drawback' is meaningless. Unfortunately, Sabre is probably right, if you nerfed bots CPU / Reactor, noobs would have a problem fitting anything, due to the high number of secondary fitting skills (Far too many imo, but thats another thread), you could however further increase the fitting reqs for T4 gear to obtain the same result.

In regards to the way LWF scales through the tech levels, I think it fits with everything else, higher fitting / better performance. In the Armor Rep example the OP used, the higher AP usage would be viewed as part of the 'Fitting Drawback' which is CPU, Reactor and Accumulator Usage. If a module is passive like a LWF it just gets a CPU and Reactor Drawback, all other stats would be improved.

@Sabre, I don't see why everyone would crosstrain to blue if LWFs were nerfed, everyone would be in exactly the same position as they are now, just slightly slower. For PvP the issue is not absolute speed, but your speed relative to the speed of the people you are fighting with and against. Your Chameleon would still be faster than anything else, it would be slower, but so would the mech you were chasing down to tackle. I would be interested to see how the game would change if the LWF was nerfed to a level where it became a real choice of whether to fit one or not. Maybe it wouldn't work, and further game play changes would have to be made, but I think everyone would agree that fitting for speed shouldn't be the only way to PvP

Re: Lightweight frame

before you start talking further about fitting requirement drawback in this topic:

have you ever looked at how much CPU/Reactor a LWF needs??

standard: 5 TF + 2 RP,
T4 7 TF + 3 RP

and those are lowered by certain extensions.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Lightweight frame

Speed is almost the single most important factor in perpetuum. Just remove LWF as a speed increasing module altogether - Make it have some other effect.

Re: Lightweight frame

doesn't really need a replacement. we got t2 modules and prototypes

AND

still the option to leave slots empty for speed gain

so i agree on either increase of the penalty or removing it completely.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Lightweight frame

Make speed a constant and everyone will be happy.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Lightweight frame

Annihilator wrote:

before you start talking further about fitting requirement drawback in this topic:

have you ever looked at how much CPU/Reactor a LWF needs??

standard: 5 TF + 2 RP,
T4 7 TF + 3 RP

and those are lowered by certain extensions.

I wasn't suggesting that the T4 frame was balanced, simply that the way it scales is in line with other modules. I agree it needs changing.

Re: Lightweight frame

Dazamin wrote:

Being a poor noob myself I have no idea if what Aeon is saying is true, but if it is, that is an issue. The Drawback of T3/T4 is higher fitting requirements, part of the purpose of those higher fitting requirements is to restrict full T4 fits, forcing you to make a decision on what to downgrade, if that doesn't happen then T4 is just straight out better, its 'Drawback' is meaningless. Unfortunately, Sabre is probably right, if you nerfed bots CPU / Reactor, noobs would have a problem fitting anything, due to the high number of secondary fitting skills (Far too many imo, but thats another thread), you could however further increase the fitting reqs for T4 gear to obtain the same result.

In regards to the way LWF scales through the tech levels, I think it fits with everything else, higher fitting / better performance. In the Armor Rep example the OP used, the higher AP usage would be viewed as part of the 'Fitting Drawback' which is CPU, Reactor and Accumulator Usage. If a module is passive like a LWF it just gets a CPU and Reactor Drawback, all other stats would be improved.

@Sabre, I don't see why everyone would crosstrain to blue if LWFs were nerfed, everyone would be in exactly the same position as they are now, just slightly slower. For PvP the issue is not absolute speed, but your speed relative to the speed of the people you are fighting with and against. Your Chameleon would still be faster than anything else, it would be slower, but so would the mech you were chasing down to tackle. I would be interested to see how the game would change if the LWF was nerfed to a level where it became a real choice of whether to fit one or not. Maybe it wouldn't work, and further game play changes would have to be made, but I think everyone would agree that fitting for speed shouldn't be the only way to PvP

You'd only need around lvl5s in fitting skills for a "full" t4 fit on combat mechs. But then that "full" fit has small rep and 2 weapon slots left empty (2x missile for gun mech, 2x gun for missile mech). Fittings get tighter as you go up to t2 mech/heavy mech. Fittings for industrials are tight at any levels.

Annihilator wrote:

before you start talking further about fitting requirement drawback in this topic:

have you ever looked at how much CPU/Reactor a LWF needs??

standard: 5 TF + 2 RP,
T4 7 TF + 3 RP

and those are lowered by certain extensions.

Requirements may be low compared to other mods, like medium guns, etc, but they're meant to be used on all sized bots, not just mechs and up. Increasing cpu/reactor would be a gimp to small bots.

Re: Lightweight frame

Perhaps you guys should stop trying to design your fits like you're still in EVE? This is a different game ya know, even if it looks similar. wink

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