1 Topic by Gaulois (edited by Gaulois 2011-07-13 19:43:03)

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Topic: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

Speed has always been a decisive factor in a fight.

This is particularly visible in most PvP action, where speed is convenient to roam a wider area, you can avoid any unfavourable fight, and catch almost any target.

This is also one of the reasons you will almost never see a weapon on a Ewar bot, because they need to be the fastest to catch the prey (lights), or need the speed to stay with the group (Mech)

That's why it became mandatory to fit a LightWeightFrame on every bot, except some Intrusion defense.

Not everyone having access to Tier4 LWF, PvP quickly became a desperate situation to most players.


- I would like that every bot are capable to reach their speed value indicated as default in the bot description. And weight would not influence the maximum speed.


Instead, Weight would have influence over the Acceleration!

We are driving bots, some of them are even wheeled, and tracked. I see no problem that they have acceleration and maximal speed like any vehicle.
A heavy loaded bot would have a slower acceleration and troubles climbing a steep slope... to the point he might actually slow down, or climb at only half it's speed.
They would get an acceleration bonus when going down a hill (This would actually bring new tactical possibilities of exploiting the terrain, and terraforming)
LWF, by lessening your bot's weight, would allow you a better acceleration and manoeuvrability. It's would remain extremely convenient to equip one, so you know that you can climb faster this slope than your opponent, and take better advantage of the terrain; but it wouldn't make you impossible to catch.


So, what do you think about it?

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

i fully agree with you here. (normally don't say that about a m2s member)

we had some talks about acceleration with the DEVs during beta. It more then a year ago so i cant remember it fully, but i think it was something like "we already tried but didn't find a solution that works with the game engine"

at least the equipmentmass vs. max speed formula needs some rebalancing. the effect of lwf

(hey, since when do we have that quickreply-window resizing option here???)

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

If this wouldn't take the devs 5 burnt out servers and 3 months to code I'd love it!

4 Reply by Gaulois (edited by Gaulois 2011-07-13 19:50:39)

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

I have no doubt this is much complicated to implement on Perpetuum, will require fine tuning for every bot, but it is still feasible without major overhall of the core mechanics of the game, and would improve the gameplay a lot. PvP and PvE... and event Idling time, by playing rollercoaster in the open big_smile

My blog about MMO design:
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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

The unfortunate issue here is that it's an issue of the have's verses the have not's.

T4 LWF is pretty much a manditory fitting just to move beyond a mind numbing crawl, therein lies a major break in the game.  Older, established players/corps have ready access to such items, where newer players are just stuck out in the cold.
Newer players dare not attempt to approach beta islands because they know they'll be overrun by the first T4 equipped light that sees them, piloted by a 5 month old experienced player they cannot match... not because of the difference in EP, but because the older player has a fat corp supplying them with cheap high tier mods the younger player never even sees on the market much less can afford.

And besides, speed (and chiefly the lack thereof), is the biggest thing that kills enjoyment of this game.  Highways should double a bot's speed, straightoff, and there should be highways between all TPs and buildings... but player corps would have to build/maintain them for their own outposts.

Weight should, as stated, affect the acceleration of a bot not its top speed.  Going uphill should not limit top speed either, just increase the affect weight has on acceleration, inversely going downhill.

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

me want more highways too! me slow sad

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

As a new player, 99% of my NIC goes to buying T4 LWFs.

My most expensive asset is not a bot... not a weapon.. not ammo... just a T4 LWF yikes

And it is required to be viable in PvP.

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

Dev confirmed LWF is getting nerf in other thread, so lets wait for that I say. If it still doesn't have desired effect this is idea is a great way for a possible solution.

This is my blob. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

9 Reply by Mammoth (edited by Mammoth 2011-07-14 11:03:50)

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

From what he said, sounds like LWF is still going to be a mandatory fit, but the gap might close significantly between t4 lwf and low end ones.

If t4 is 15% reduction, you have to squeeze t1 t2 and t3 between 1 and 15%. 1% would be completely worthless with the added penalties, so I'm guessing they'll start a few points in. Maybe 7.5/10/12.5/15% reductions? That would make t3 very viable and t2 feasible for cost. Remains to be seen how they'll go about it though. It could end up more like 4/7/10/15%, which I doubt would change anything.

In my opinion, the penalties should be cut by 50-75% and the mass reduction should be cut by 75%. The major cost of installing it should be the slot it occupies, and the bonus it gives should be small enough to balance with that cost. That's the first method that occurs to me in order to change them from a requirement to an option. They shouldn't be a standard fit, they should be for bots dedicated to speed and/or economical in their module application. Such a major advantage from one slot will simply cause players to play around any penalties you apply to it. Balance the advantage with the opportunity cost of not installing something else there, rather than penalties on the item itself.

The demob penalty in particular is quite meaningless. At the current mass reduction levels, if you don't equip it and they do, they don't need to demob you anyway, so your lack of vulnerability to being demobbed isn't exactly helping, unless you're also demobbing everyone you're facing.

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

Predator Nova wrote:

Dev confirmed LWF is getting nerf in other thread, so lets wait for that I say. If it still doesn't have desired effect this is idea is a great way for a possible solution.

can you link the thread ? I fail at searching it seems.

anyway each bot should have a max mass it can support (total modules equiped) and LWF would lower that limit. so you can either equip for speed or firepower/tank. not both at the same time. coupled with the acceleration modifications proposed, this would nicely balance things.

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

I agree with the acceleration idea. Even if they do not do anything with the speed that is one thing I have not liked about this game. It seems to be unrealistic that a fully loaded bot maneuvers and accelerates as fast as a unfit ship.

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

I like the idea of using mass as another fitting limitation; makes sense. Would prefer that lwf be reduced to a fitting mod in that case, with base bot speeds buffed to compensate. Speed needs to be less ultimate.

Also really need an active propulsion mod that hoovers cap. Would do more than anything else to improve pvp; managing cap, applying burst of speed at appropriate times, giving slow bots a recourse to get a foe in range, etc. Activating it would bump your size mod a couple points, making you easier to hit.

Good thing to have.

Acceleration would also be nifty, but if it's a no go it's a no go. Would greatly prefer having it tho.

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

Juan Valdez wrote:

Also really need an active propulsion mod that hoovers cap. Would do more than anything else to improve pvp

Really? Guy activates and starts running, you activate and start chasing, his bot has more accum, you never get close.

Or say you're doing 70 and he is doing 60, outpost is 4k away. He can get there in 4 minutes. If you detected him from 500m outside your engagement range, it'll take you only 3 minutes to get to him.

Now you both turn on the boosters, you're doing 100 and he is doing 90. It's still going to take you 3 minutes to get to him, but he will be safe after 2:40.

Accum already seems pretty important, I don't know that making it the only pvp stat would improve things.

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

Juan Valdez wrote:

I like the idea of using mass as another fitting limitation; makes sense. Would prefer that lwf be reduced to a fitting mod in that case, with base bot speeds buffed to compensate. Speed needs to be less ultimate.

Also really need an active propulsion mod that hoovers cap. Would do more than anything else to improve pvp; managing cap, applying burst of speed at appropriate times, giving slow bots a recourse to get a foe in range, etc. Activating it would bump your size mod a couple points, making you easier to hit.

Good thing to have.

Acceleration would also be nifty, but if it's a no go it's a no go. Would greatly prefer having it tho.

another option would be for lwf to not reduce hp but increase the chance of ctitical hits on you. after all you are replacing internal structures with more fragile components, so a hit at the right place can more easily disjoint a leg or arm. there are plenty of options to pick from. best would be an universal limiter that does not affect what the other part has equiped.

the demob resistance change is explained quite well, but if the other party does not have a demob equiped, you take in all the advantages (well still a it of HP lost).

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

Mammoth wrote:
Juan Valdez wrote:

Also really need an active propulsion mod that hoovers cap. Would do more than anything else to improve pvp

Really? Guy activates and starts running, you activate and start chasing, his bot has more accum, you never get close.

Or say you're doing 70 and he is doing 60, outpost is 4k away. He can get there in 4 minutes. If you detected him from 500m outside your engagement range, it'll take you only 3 minutes to get to him.

Now you both turn on the boosters, you're doing 100 and he is doing 90. It's still going to take you 3 minutes to get to him, but he will be safe after 2:40.

Accum already seems pretty important, I don't know that making it the only pvp stat would improve things.

So you neut him down and he can't run it as long. Or you demob him and it shuts down. Or you send in a tackle bot who chases him down well before he can escape. Or you already burned your accum during the fight running your BFGs, and now you can't chase so he pulls off.

It works well with existing options, and adds yet another thing you can do to the list of fun things. Light bots with crappy gear and boosters could catch a faster bot by chugging just outside their demob range and then hitting the accelerator. Fatbots could evade tackle long enough to waste it and get away by stepping on the gas.

Long story short, it changes speed from a static element set at undock to an active one you can manipulate during the fight. A good change.

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Re: Changing the way Weight affect maximal speed.

AeonThePiglet wrote:

So you neut him down and he can't run it as long. Or you demob him and it shuts down.

These sound like things you do from within engagement range.

AeonThePiglet wrote:

Or you send in a tackle bot who chases him down well before he can escape.

While this just sounds like you are attempting to counter the example without understanding what it means. I shouldn't have deleted the last line I wrote there sorry, I have a tendency to think that I am expressing myself more clearly than I am.

The point is this : the faster bots are, the closer they are to safety at any time. Top speed 60, outpost 4ks away, you're 4 minutes from safety. Top speed 90, outpost 4ks away, you're 2 minutes and 40 seconds from safety.


AeonThePiglet wrote:

Long story short, it changes speed from a static element set at undock to an active one you can manipulate during the fight. A good change.

It also changes accum from 'very important' to 'the only stat that matters'. Look at LWF. Now ask yourself how many people would slot every accum booster they could and run only autocannons in order to maximise their speed. Ask yourself whether changing green bots from 'very close to slowest' to 'blindingly fast' overnight is a good change.