1 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-07-12 20:35:28)

Topic: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Premise:

My purpose here is to show how the introduction of L-Demobs in large scale PVP removes the ablity to engage in asymmetric warfare, due to in inability of a smaller force being able to utilize speed to engage a superior force.  This is an essential component if PVP in Perpetuum is to not become another example of a blob-online type of PVP environment.

Asymmetric warfare is leveraging inferior tactical or operational strength against the vulnerabilities of a superior opponent to achieve disproportionate effect with the aim of undermining the opponent’s will in order to achieve the asymmetric actor’s strategic objectives.

Criteria Utilized:

Calculations for the Zenith are based on the following:
-2 T4 Remote Sensor Amps, remote amp’ing the Zenith
-Head slots having 1 T4 L-Demob (also for the S-Demob)
-Head slots having 4X T4 Range Extenders
-Squad having 1X T4 EW Nexus
-Squad having 1x T4 Long Range Targeting Nexus
-and the following skills/bonuses:

  • Skill    B/Lvl    level    bonus total
    Advanced robotics        10   
    Navigation    3.00%    10    30.00%
    Accelerated target locking    5.00%    10    50.00%
    Demobilization    3.00%    10    30.00%
    Long distance electronic warfare    3.00%    10    30.00%
    Long range targeting    5.00%    10    50.00%
    Sensor connection    2.00%    10    20.00%
    NEXUS - Accelerated target locking    1.00%    10    10.00%
    NEXUS - Long Range Targeting    1.00%    10    10.00%
    NEXUS - Electronic warfare    2.00%    10    20.00%

Analysis:
Based upon the data presented below, we see that the Zenth has the following stats:

Locking range   -             1111.696875 m

T4 L-Demob Optimal range    1199.468486 m
(T4 S-Demob Optimal range    599.7342 m )

Taking into account the signal masking and signal detection data below, we see that the L-Demob Zenith, fit per above, has the following:

-    Detection of mech and heavy mech targets well in excess of it’s locking range.
-    L-Demob range well in excess to the maximum potential range of any weapon fire by at least 200 meters

However, the same can also be said about Sensor Suppressors and ECMs, in fact more so.  Fitting a 2 T4 Suppressor or 2 T4 ECM fit, and having 3 T4 Range extenders, we find that the Zenith, being T4 Remote Sensor Amp’d by a person with max skills, has the following ranges:

T4 ECM optimal range:            1216.852
T4 Sensor Suppressor optimal range:    1216.852

However, the issue here is still the locking range, which still remains 111.697 m. 

So lets apply this to a battle.  Group A is set up in position with Group B approaching.  Group A has it’s L-Demob fit Zeniths 200 m  to the rear, and spread out to diffuse interference. Group B engages, and is with weapon fire and L-Demob/Sensor Suppressor/ECM range of Group A, so it has it’s Ewar group move up.  However, to do this, Group B Ewar Zeniths now has to move to within 111.697 m of the enemies L-Demob’ers, and will then be within weapon fire range of Group A.  Group A’s L-Demob Zeniths are still, however, outside Group B’s weapon fire ranges.

This is a no risk situation for the L-Demob, or Suppressor/ECM fit Zenith, fit per the above, of Group A, there is no counter to their L-Demobs / Suppressors / ECMs.

As we can see, with S-Demobs, the Zenith still has to get within weapon fire to be able to utilize it.  With a max potential range of 599.7342 m, it has to be well in range of Grophos and Seths, and possibly Artemis and Tyrannos, based on their fittings.  In order to Demob a target, risk is involved, and the Ewar mech potentially can be fired on and destroyed, so there is a potential counter to S-Demob fit Zenith.

Now let’s add the asymmetric component.  Group A has 80, Group B has 30,  Due to it’s size, Group B can easily afford to have 20% of it’s squad fit for long range Ewar, which would be 16 Ewar mechs.  Even if Group B has the same percentage, that would represent 6 Ewar mechs, Group A having a 150% more long range Ewar capability.  Under such circumstances, Group B could potentially have 80% of it’s forces effected by long range Ewar, vs 7.5% of Group A.

Under these circumstances, Group B has to withdraw.  Using a speed fit doctrine, they at least, without L-Demobs, have the ablity to string out the opposition, possible engage smaller elements that got to far ahead of the main group, or force the main group to hold formation, and thus move only as fast as it’s slowest component.  But with L-Demobs, with Group A having even 10% of it’s force set up for long range demob’ing, could lock down 26% of group B during this retreat, with no risk of retaliation, and with no effective counter, other than remaining outside of the 111.697 locking range.  Properly performed by Group A, this would either result in Group B slowly being destroyed as it tries to retreat, or forcing Group B to defend the demob’d assets, thus being encompassed by a the superior force.

OK, so let’s look at another scenario.  Group B atticipates the potential for long range demobs, and plate fits to compensate.  But in doing so, they now have cut their speed substantially, allowing for Group A, if speed fit, to again encompass Group B, with it’s long range L-Demods safely out of harms way, and wipe it out.  By plate fitting, Group B has effectively demob’d itself.

The point being, L-Demobs, properly fit to a Zenith with appropriate skills, have no counter.  The easy thing is to say that the problem is the Zenith, but the issue never existed prior to the introduction of L-Demobs. 

As far as Suppressors and ECMS, yes, they had the range capability, but all they will do is limit the ablity to lock and fire, not movement.  If Suppressed or ECM’d the targets could attempt to move out of range and break the effect, or choose not to engage at that time.

Conclusion:

The ability of achieving such a long locking range with Remote Sensor Amps, combined with the L-Demods potential range, effectively eliminates smaller groups from kiting and engaging larger groups in PVP.  A larger group will typically have significantly more L-Demobs in it’s forces, and even if the numbers were even, the larger force, due to it’s DPS superiority, will effectively always win.

L-demobs, as currently defined, on a max skilled character in a Zenith, have no effective counter.  ECM and Suppressors can be countered by ECCMs, however. Range should be reduced to force the L-Demob mech to get within weapon fire, and potentially countered, or the module removed from game.

Base Data / Calculations:

Zenith
Locking range:             1111.696875 m
T4 L-Demob Optimal range:    1199.468486 m
(T4 S-Demob Optimal range:    599.7342 m )
2x T4 Sensor Suppressor Range:   1216.852088
2x T4 ECM Optimal Range:      1216.852088

Zenith Detection Ranges:
Service Bot        1250 m
Light Bot        1000 m
Light Industrial    1250 m
Light Ewar Bot    769.23 m
Assault        1000 m
Industrial Assault    1250 m
Mech            1250 m
Ewar Mech        1000 m
Industrial Mech    1250 m
Heavy Mech        1250 m
Heavy Industrial Mech    1333.33 m

Detection of Zenith Ranges
Service Bot            800 m
Light Bot            1200 m
Light Industrial        800 m
Light Ewar Bot        700 m
Assault            1000 m
Industrial Assault        800 m
Mech                1200 m
Ewar Mech            1000 m
Industrial Mech        800 m
Heavy Mech            800 m
Heavy Industrial Mech    750 m

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

2 (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-07-12 20:32:03)

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

L-demobs, as currently defined, on a max skilled character in a Zenith, have no effective counter.  Range should be reduced to force the L-Demob mech to get within weapon fire, and potentially countered, or the module removed from game.

Zenith
Locking range:             1111.696875 m
T4 L-Demob Optimal range:    1199.468486 m
(T4 S-Demob Optimal range:    599.7342 m )
T4 Sensor Suppressor Range:   1216.852088
T4 ECM Optimal Range:      1216.852088


Suppressors and ECM's have longer range, they are an effective counter.

There were also new mechanics introduced at the same time as l-demobs to counter the bigger guy walking onto the little guy.

Furthermore, I am surprised to see this suggestion with your want for mesmers and seths to be more useful. Zenith's with l-demobs make that possible right now without any additional changes. Your motives are becoming questionable.

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Simplier solution to fix L-demob would be to remove demob range bonus from Zeniths/Intakts and keep only suppress range bonus. L-demobs generaly are fine until they are fit on Zenith (1.1km range) or mk2 zenith where you can get up to lol 1.3km range.
Fixing it that way would still mean that long range suppress Zeniths have a strong role in gangs but there's no "I win" button with 1km+ demobs.

4 (edited by Saha 2011-07-12 20:33:43)

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

GLiMPSE wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

L-demobs, as currently defined, on a max skilled character in a Zenith, have no effective counter.  Range should be reduced to force the L-Demob mech to get within weapon fire, and potentially countered, or the module removed from game.

Zenith
Locking range:             1111.696875 m
T4 L-Demob Optimal range:    1199.468486 m
(T4 S-Demob Optimal range:    599.7342 m )
T4 Sensor Suppressor Range:   1216.852088
T4 ECM Optimal Range:      1216.852088


Suppressors and ECM's have longer range, they are an effective counter.

There were also new mechanics introduced at the same time as l-demobs to counter the bigger guy walking onto the little guy.


ECMs fitted on Zeniths(fail) to counter Demob Zeniths or are you trying to claim Vagabonds can get ECMs to 1km+? ECCM introduced which was already removed?

*edit: Please keep personal insults out of this forum section. - DEV Calvin

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Saha wrote:
GLiMPSE wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

L-demobs, as currently defined, on a max skilled character in a Zenith, have no effective counter.  Range should be reduced to force the L-Demob mech to get within weapon fire, and potentially countered, or the module removed from game.

Zenith
Locking range:             1111.696875 m
T4 L-Demob Optimal range:    1199.468486 m
(T4 S-Demob Optimal range:    599.7342 m )
T4 Sensor Suppressor Range:   1216.852088
T4 ECM Optimal Range:      1216.852088


Suppressors and ECM's have longer range, they are an effective counter.

There were also new mechanics introduced at the same time as l-demobs to counter the bigger guy walking onto the little guy.


ECMs fitted on Zeniths to counter Demob Zeniths or are you trying to claim Vagabonds can get ECMs to 1km+? ECCM introduced which was already removed?

Really not trying to bring corp politics into this...and yes, suppressors and ecm's have longer range. It may not be the 'best fit' but it is a counter. Just because it's not the counter you want it to be doesn't make it a non-viable suggestion.

I am not talking about ECCM's.

6 (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-07-12 20:38:27)

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Really though, at the end of the day, all of this is just theorycrafting. There have been no large scale battles or intrusions since the release of l-demobs to test to see if there theoretical application is a reality.

These numbers are also based on skills in which no one yet has the EP to accommodate.

7 (edited by Saha 2011-07-12 20:39:53)

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

GLiMPSE wrote:

Really not trying to bring corp politics into this...and yes, suppressors and ecm's have longer range. It may not be the 'best fit' but it is a counter. Just because it's not the counter you want it to be doesn't make it a non-viable suggestion.

I am not talking about ECCM's.

Firstly, ECM due to semi low values highly depends on having couple ECM modules equiped, which means less range extenders. Your suggestion generally means 1 ecm with low ew strengh (no bonus on zenith) to counter a zenith with l-demob which generally needs to get 1-2 cycles in on a target for that target to die. Doesn't work. Even if it did, it would go down again to "whoever brings more zeniths wins".

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

GLiMPSE wrote:

Really though, at the end of the day, all of this is just theorycrafting. There have been no large scale battles or intrusions since the release of l-demobs to test to see if there theoretical application is a reality.

These numbers are also based on skills in which no one yet has the EP to accommodate yet.


It's a question of potential, and also a mechanic that could be used in intrusion or any engagement that was asymmetric.  The ablity to "kite" an opponent, and capitalize on terrain and movement, is effectively neutralized.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

"whoever brings more ewar, whilst still maintaining the critical mass to alpha his opponents wins" is probably a more accurate statement

10 (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-07-12 20:42:52)

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
GLiMPSE wrote:

Really though, at the end of the day, all of this is just theorycrafting. There have been no large scale battles or intrusions since the release of l-demobs to test to see if there theoretical application is a reality.

These numbers are also based on skills in which no one yet has the EP to accommodate yet.


It's a question of potential, and also a mechanic that could be used in intrusion or any engagement that was asymmetric.  The ablity to "kite" an opponent, and capitalize on terrain and movement, is effectively neutralized.

The way we used to do it, yes. But, because of recent additions, the smaller lighter force still has an advantage if the enemy is chasing you.

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

GLiMPSE wrote:

The way we used to do it, yes. But, because of recent additions, the smaller lighter force still has an advantage if the enemy is chasing you.

Please enlighten us, since due to l-demobs smaller force kitting a blob has been shot down pretty much effectively. You'll just get picked out one by one over time due to zeniths demobing at 1km+ which is quite a bit further that any possible dps engagement range. There are 2 ways which _might_ work in theory to limited effect but was never actually used in practice. One of theories can be easily shot down by limited head slots (smaller kitting force relies on speed+range which you can't get with reducing head slots). The other one involves shooting something with 200 hp at half a million cost per shot to have a rather time limited effect on the blob.

12 (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-07-12 21:04:01)

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Saha wrote:
GLiMPSE wrote:

The way we used to do it, yes. But, because of recent additions, the smaller lighter force still has an advantage if the enemy is chasing you.

Please enlighten us, since due to l-demobs smaller force kitting a blob has been shot down pretty much effectively. You'll just get picked out one by one over time due to zeniths demobing at 1km+ which is quite a bit further that any possible dps engagement range. There are 2 ways which _might_ work in theory to limited effect but was never actually used in practice. One of theories can be easily shot down by limited head slots (smaller kitting force relies on speed+range which you can't get with reducing head slots). The other one involves shooting something with 200 hp at half a million cost per shot to have a rather time limited effect on the blob.

Sounds like you got it all figured out, but I feel you're undervaluing these 'time limited' effects. They are incredibly strong and could mean the blob losing all locks, and being stuck with a 20+ second locking time until they reposition. That type of serious interruption can be turned into an integral turning point in any battle

But as we've both pointed out. This is all theory-crafting, and there hasn't been an intrusion or large battle to prove either of us right or wrong.

I can see both sides of it -- but ultimately the question that really needs to be answered is... were dev's intentions with the l-demobs to force fights and prevent the kiting manuevers which have been used to such great effect int he past?

If it's their direction, there is little that our arguing will accomplish, and as I said previously... I can see both sides of the coin,.

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Ldemobs are LOS affected on Dev server already, and unique modules.

As well there are plans for a Demob resist extension, 1% /lvl, reducing demob extension bonus from 3% to 2% and increasing S-demob base effect by 10%

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

14 (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-07-12 22:16:10)

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

DEV Alf wrote:

Ldemobs are LOS affected on Dev server already, and unique modules.

As well there are plans for a Demob resist extension, 1% /lvl, reducing demob extension bonus from 3% to 2% and increasing S-demob base effect by 10%

That's a huge change. Should shake things up a bit.

15

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

DEV Alf wrote:

Ldemobs are LOS affected on Dev server already, and unique modules.

As well there are plans for a Demob resist extension, 1% /lvl, reducing demob extension bonus from 3% to 2% and increasing S-demob base effect by 10%

Great to see some changes, but tbh bringing another must-train-lvl10 extension (and I doubt you'll set it to rank 7 heavy/r&d - if you would that would be epicly funny big_smile) will give huge advantage to vets.

Also I would encourage you to make a post about all upcoming changes in your dev blog and/or create "future patch note" list so we could know what are you working on and so we could give you some theory crafting and give you possible feedback wink

Our robots are made by Jesus himself with the help of MacGyver and blessed by Chuck Noris

16 (edited by Alexadar 2011-07-13 00:40:26)

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Dear DEV Alf. When lwf will be not "musthave" module for pvp, such ballance problems will not disturb DEV team.

Dont know how you will achieve it, but for example: lwf should be removed, and velocity nexus should have moar %. Or other option you want, but please STOP THIS DEMOB-LWF MADNESS.

Edit
optimal-faloff for ew mods should give some breath for pvp. At least for demobs: zenith will be not uber longhand bot, and vagabond will have more place for pvp. Just thought...

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

I have that in mind for a long time:
Reducing LWF bonuses to 15% at t4, keeping their negatives, and increasing all bots'  base speed to achieve the same speed as before with t4 lwf. Would mean non lwf users wouldn't be so much slower.

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Dev ALF,
This is the first time I have seen you come up with logical ideas. Implement them soon!!!

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Its good, as probably it is the first time you seeing me posting anyway, so i am 100% efficient, right? smile

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

DEV Alf wrote:

Its good, as probably it is the first time you seeing me posting anyway, so i am 100% efficient, right? smile

Not anymore sad

Noobs in mirror are closer than they appear.

21 (edited by Elirian 2011-07-13 10:50:27)

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Would you mind showing how you got this number?

"T4 L-Demob Optimal range    1199.468486 m"

It's base 300 right?

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

DEV Alf wrote:

I have that in mind for a long time:
Reducing LWF bonuses to 15% at t4, keeping their negatives, and increasing all bots'  base speed to achieve the same speed as before with t4 lwf.

/signed
+ as addition something increased HP penalti from lwf's

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Eldrian T4 has 350m range.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Ldemobs are LOS affected on Dev server already, and unique modules.

As well there are plans for a Demob resist extension, 1% /lvl, reducing demob extension bonus from 3% to 2% and increasing S-demob base effect by 10%

LOS on L-demobs would be great, maybe on all demobs.

I don't know if those extra skills are necessary.

Re: L-Demobs, Remote Sensor Amps, Zenith, and Asymmetric Warfare

Elirian wrote:

Would you mind showing how you got this number?

"T4 L-Demob Optimal range    1199.468486 m"

It's base 300 right?

Do 3x range extenders, have high skills on long distance ewar, targetting range, have a buddy intakt by you with high nexus skills and a t4 ewar nexus. Remote sensor boost.

Bam.