Topic: Some philosophical thoughts about MMO's and Perpetuum Online

(or ramblings of a rookie )

It is my firm believe that on the ( very ) long term, sandbox games, maybe such as Perpetuum, are the future of MMORP-Games. Reason why I believe this is simple: they are prone to give more possibilities to the players.

Consider: how, what or who changes a created MMO virtual world. It is all been done by the game mechanics. In storyline mode this “world” depends largely on the story, with sandbox games the gamers have a chance to make some changes themselves.

Too long the games dictated all of the player choices. Up till now the player’s intelligence was only a factor. Has always been a small factor when it came to things that mattered. Games will have us rather to grind: to mine never ending material, to kill infinite respawning npcs then actually do something permanent and lasting.
Because game-makers are self-proclaimed, self-validating experts, the AI from the avatar, the computer, the system have always been the master in control. Take it or leave it.

Another factor is the general accepted idea that a game should appeal to as much players as it can. Weird enough, this seems to mean: games have to cater for even the biggest “idiot” among us. At the same time marketing is pushing to deliver games for younger generations. This while in RL, toys and non-computer games have always been designated, classified by some sort of age definition and acknowledge by that fact that older humans are looking for something quite different then younger players to have “fun” with.
The same souls should be willing to pay an overpriced luxury item: gaming-time. To put it blunt: you do not need to be smart to play computergames, but it helps. I wonder what that makes me ?

This could change with another “style” of game: though admittedly, sandbox MMO games do not give any guarantee in this respect and are still in a “growing” phase.
At the moment the influences are still mostly a responsibility of the devs. To actually be able to make a difference as a player is maybe still a wet dream. Nevertheless it could be a reachable goal some day. Evolutions don’t come overnight.

What has to change to reach this goal?
The computer, and through the system, the devs, are god of “their” world of course. So, their responsibilities and power will always stay undeniable. To question them is to err.
So let us rephrase the question in: how much power are these gods willing to defer to the human player ?

But why would they in the first place ? Indeed, the unwritten laws of gaming leave the control of the playground to the GM after all. A structure which has earned its place from back when we played good old Dungeons and Dragons games with pen and paper.

It is obvious that,  in past time, where dices where the only random factor, someone had to “lead” on, put everything together, make the game “happen”. To be game-master meant sometimes creating the game, or at least monitor it, sometimes both. The GM was the game.

It is long since we changed the dices with computers. Yet,  game mechanics, except for some minor things, clearly did not change much since D&D, did they ? The only difference is that the GM talks through a parameter, an algorithm, a mathematical entity in a otherwise electronic device.

I know, we did get a graphical display, with a power which makes it so “easy” to immerse in a fantasy world. No need of a wardrobe anymore to get to any Narnia of our choice. And yet still we are playing adaptations of paper versions.
This will only ameliorate if and when the GM/Dev is willing to let go of the exclusive right to create, let go of the exclusive control on the game.

Most MMO’s leave the guidance of the player to the story. It is easier though it multiplies the necessary data in an exponential way. It also means gamers do not get a choice in how to achieve a ( or the final ) goal. Trying to give more paths to achieve the (end-)goals always results in even more problems: synchronisation, story-lines crossing each other and figuring out other metametrics.
Some experiments with “instances” are now being forwarded as a solution, but ultimately I do not believe this will solve anything. The problem lies in the philosophy of the game itself: the story is at the hart of these games, not the player. He is just another figure.

Sandbox games on the other hand while they lack this clear but restrictive feature, usually  have a drawback of leaving players in a twilight zone.
Contrary to the other MMO’s they do not have an endgame or endboss. They just have a misty(?) end”goal”: world dominance, controlling most of the playground, strongest PvPer, richest bastard around, you name it ...

How is Perpetuum holding out in all this ? Quite fine actually, though with ( some ) flaws. Flaws we are willing to dismiss easily because it is still considered new. Read: “unfinished”.
Perpetuum’s tutorials, for instance,  have something of a confusing nature. They just learn the utmost basics and lack entirely to give “guidance”. For those willing to indulge in them, it is possible to get started, but with some try and error on the rookie’s part. Writing tutorials is an art …

I am familiar with EvE, and as such recognised a number of similar game functionalities and peculiarities. In fact my first thoughts were: “This is EvE, but with mechs”. As such I had no problem getting on my way, and finish tut-assignments. But I can imagine some newbies will be a bit bewildered.
If I had to complain most it is that Perpetuum online looks too much like EVE Online. The interface looks similar. The assignments are similar. Most of the ideas are similar or adapted.
If differs because Perpetuum is smaller, has less data to manage both system and player, and need some things extended our ameliorated. But it is creepy and it start you wonder if the ones making this game had no ideas of their own. Pretending all is part of the “sandbox” gamestyle is exaggerated. Nowhere is stated what belongs to one style or another. Sandboxes do have a story, if only for background and some storyliners give you the possibility to do something entirely different, out of the normal storypath.

Whatever developers decide or make they should always see to it, that whatever the game is asking is within the lines of what can be circumscribed as: realistic logic demands. Fantasy is nice, but the gameplay will only work as long as it stays “believable”.

Mining jobs had a bit of a surprise in that respect: why do we need an “area”-based survey if afterwards we make a smaller “tile”-based ? Seems to me we are doing the same job twice just to get an useless arbitrary “first” result. Did I miss something ? Is there any other purpose in the game ? And what to think about those designations”xx-nnnnn” ?Is this a remainder of a developing idea, which never has been worked out and just lingers ?
The mining itself is straightforward enough: it is shooting without shooting ;D.

The combination of distributing skill points, which you get per unit time, has a bit of perverted side-effect: rookies always pay handsomely more for normal ( call it standard ) “stuff”. I have to admit, I am not fond of the idea of time-based skill points ( or extensions, what’s in a name … ). Nor am I overenthusiastic about kill-based ( call it success-based ) skill distribution. What I would like better is a combination of the two. A balanced rewarding system based on basic skills going up with time and advanced, or expert, or class based skills going up with experience.

The restriction on the market for trials is a bit unfortunate, and everything considered unintelligible. Otherwise I do not mind the restrictions, but I start wondering what they were meant to do or why they were endorsed in the first place. Maybe there is an explicit reason, but I cant see any, except making a difference between regular and temporary members.
If you make a time restriction, why not give access to all of the game’s features? If I had a say in this I would change the 14-days in a month but with a restriction on the real effective played online time.

The AI of the npcs had some peculiarities. In some cases I wondered why they would depart in the middle of an attack. Did they loose interest in me ? Funny but weird.

What is obvious is that the devs have been working on some characterization of the type of attack to make at least . Missiles follow some ballistic track, bullets and lasers just shoot straight on.
A “feature” I loved was that you could cover behind plants and structures. I particularly loved it because it makes the player and his intelligence a factor of the game-play. Ultimately this should be the goal of any game: to let the player make the difference. And if possible without having to swallow a encyclopedia of data.

Usable markets are a big asset to the game, if you can get the hang of it. Furthermore if they are close to a RL market system they work selfregulating. But some issues have to be monitored closely.

I hope Perpetuum does not intend to go about as did EvE. Where EvE went wrong, into my eyes, is the huge amount of data you needed to play it with a bit of chance of success. You had to have a database or at least “find” a database with heaps of nifty little things which made your life online, if not more useful certainly much easier.
It also asked too much commitment to achieve anything which could be regarded as significant or even rewarding.   Anything that was not a warior-type, such as an engineer, had to build up an avatar for ages before being able to create even the most simple of things. It did not matter if you had the help of others, your skills would only raise gradually, just as with Perpetuum where they call it extensions. Basicly you got the idea you were not rewarded for your efforts at all.
After a while this stops to be “fun” at all: if a game gives a feeling as if you are doing a  9-5 job, then there is something fundamental wrong. It is a pitfall for the simple casual player. This is for professionals.
So I quit EVE.

I would suspect that Perpetuum being a sandbox game most of the players complaints are about the lack of “direction” or “guidance”. Although sometimes true, experience tells me the playing part of society is populated with humans of or with an  “immature” behavior. Some never read anything to learn the game properly or do tutorials, which means those complaints are sometimes due to themselves. I already saw some examples in the “help” channel. 

Others are perhaps the opposite: gamejunkies, hardcore gamers, Uebergamers or whatever you want to call them. Playing day and night, at least they are or seem to be online all of the time.
What this usually means is that they tend to consider the game their own and it gives them the false impression they have a right to rebuke other “less motivated” gamers. When they complain it is mostly because they are “bored”.

The relation-with-faction-idea is always been an idea I had problems with. Not that I don’t like it, but it seems no developer ever seem to in”corporate” ( mind the small wordplay ) a solid balanced system of it. And balance is the keyword of any RPG.
Explain to me why a corporation would punish you for a mining operation? Because it is striving with the contractor of the assignment ? Does that make any sense ? Hardly. Is this critical ? Of course not ! It is just ones of those little annoying things which makes my nose twist.

I played the 14-day trial account and changed it now to full member month account. A fortnight is too short a period to evaluate any game, a month is a minimum. Especially considering that casual players aren’t that frequent online, or they have to force themselves to change habits if possible.
Already I found a thread of a fellow player, on another game’s forum, pointing this out. And together with other clues and evidences he wanted to proof that all of today’s online games are, “ by nature”, less considerate for casual players then they are for the “daily” players.
Other ( hardcore ? ) gamers reacted as if something they acquired was questioned or worse. But they did not understand the finer nuanced points of the statement or they did not read this text correctly. If they read it at all.

Ultimately I hope Perpetuum will not become an EVE clone and will have ideas and gameplay of its own. Indeed it has potential, but to what end is yet unknown. I’ll be around just a bit longer to see how it develops.

Re: Some philosophical thoughts about MMO's and Perpetuum Online

Sry where is TLDR section?:D
Im joking, will read topic to the end with a cup of a tea.

Re: Some philosophical thoughts about MMO's and Perpetuum Online

I made it about halfway and ran out of coffee...

Re: Some philosophical thoughts about MMO's and Perpetuum Online

I don t understand all word. Because my English is poor.

But I think agree many of things with you. "sandbox games, maybe such as Perpetuum, are the future of MMORP-Games" I agree that too.

And welcome in Perpetuum, go to change the game, and make a story. Because we can.
(http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/29131/#p29131)

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Some philosophical thoughts about MMO's and Perpetuum Online

Addendum
They changed the mining with the last patch. Good thing, we don’t have to wonder about absurd designations.
They also changed the way materials are visualised on the playground. Don’t mind if its cubical now in place of cylindric, does not change much. The colors are less blurred then they used to be, so in all it is an improvement.
So, they DO listen ;D

2e addendum
Consider this the only warning I give regarding my text.
I am sick and tired of forums in which, admittedly the majority of people, write nitwit comments and useless remarks, if not worse. ( No, I don't mean the replies from the guys just up here ^^)
Ok, I have prejudices: I am lurking on the forums of Bioware’s SWTOR, back from 2008(!)... and  there isn’t even a game !  I still browse through them in search, in vain as it seems as of late, of some kind of substantiated ideas. It becomes rare to find anything interesting. Mostly I have to wipe my display clean afterwards, because of the vast amount of stupid drooling which ooze down from those webpages ;D ...
Don’t take me wrong, I have no problem with players stating their likes and dislikes. But I do love some clue as to why something is been considered good and certainly why something is been disliked.
Furthermore there are far more eloquent people online besides me, which need respect on the ways they are seeing things, maybe other flavors, other meanings. But experience has learned me that most of those fellow users are been equally overpowered, overwhelmed, stashed away between a vast bulk of meaningless words. Words because sentences are too long. Let alone 4 A4-pages of text.
And one(1) word of a wise man says more then an endless stream of sentences of a fool. Which only proofs I am foolish enough to think somebody actually would read what this fool is “rambling” about.

6 (edited by Crepitus 2011-06-01 15:41:19)

Re: Some philosophical thoughts about MMO's and Perpetuum Online

a lot of people don't even read forums.

Louise1 wrote:

Mining jobs had a bit of a surprise in that respect: why do we need an “area”-based survey if afterwards we make a smaller “tile”-based ? Seems to me we are doing the same job twice just to get an useless arbitrary “first” result. Did I miss something ? Is there any other purpose in the game ? And what to think about those designations”xx-nnnnn” ?Is this a remainder of a developing idea, which never has been worked out and just lingers ?
The mining itself is straightforward enough: it is shooting without shooting ;D.

You don't have to use area scanners if your skills are good enough and with a decent scanner you can just run around with universal tile charges and get good results.  I personally hate area scans.

Understand that islands tend to have a bias in the minerals they possess, for example Attalica (the one with which I'm most familiar) has barely any liquizit or stermonit at all but it has lots of titan and immentium.

Also understand that unless you have 100%+ scanner accuracy your results are lying to you by a certain amount; so finding big fields is easy small ones are hard.

EDIT: I prefer waypoints to using the scan results for telling me where stuff is but with the new system that auto sorts stuff out that might change (I haven't tested it yet).

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Some philosophical thoughts about MMO's and Perpetuum Online

The difference between area and tile scans are just with the initial searching. An area based scan can quickly tell you if there's any of that material in the ground, and you can cover some serious area. Once you've found it the first time, there's no reason to use an area scan again.

Also, a note on univerisal scans, it only tells you what is on the spot your standing on, basically it's range is 10m. I use it extensively for initial searches, but know that you can easily miss an entire field if your off by even 1 square.


as for the drivel and drool, not every post can be gold. As they say in the used car business, you have to dig through a lot of poop to find a pony.