I think you have a good idea here- the "risk" that so many PvPers talk about should belong to the good stuff- maybe T3, definitely T4 and higher. If you want the best, you have to work to get it, or hire someone to do the work for you. In the meantime, if you can't afford the best, the adequate will suffice- it should be cheap and easily available.

The last thing you want is for PvPers to farm or grind for hours in order to get gear that lasts a few minutes: save that for the top of the line, for the players who are willing to put in the extra work.

I know the game lost a lot of players because they felt that the last patch was forcing them to move to Beta. I realize that part of this was a response to PvPers whining about a lack of targets, but the response was unquestionably too far in one direction. What's the harm in people farming alpha all day? If someone wants to build T1 and T2 gear without fear of being ganked (either by players or NPCs), let them- it certainly won't destroy the economy, it will keep the PvPers swimming in cheap, disposable gear, and it might even convince some players to keep subscribing.

For that matter, why not let it stand as it has been, and build on that?

T1 and T2 are pretty easy to make, and don't require many exotic materials (except for the items that use epitron). T3 requires a bit more time and more exotics, but not much, and now T4 wants the new plant- this sounds about right. And when T5 comes out, introduce a new resource tied to PvP or the Betas to keep the risk/reward curve high.

And that's a good thing, isn't it? Wouldn't you rather have these items readily available and cheap?

Since you're showing an interest in this discussion, I wonder if you have a moment to share the developer's thoughts regarding the place of industry in the game?

There have been many similar discussions about this issue, and it appears to many, especially after the last patch, that you see the industry side as an adjunct to combat, either PvE or PvP, but especially PvP. I think the latest devblog supports this as well.

If this is true, I am disappointed- I had high hopes that the economy would become an arena where we could take real risks and reap real rewards, and that the political arena would offer yet another layer of challenge. Instead, the political and social systems seem to be diminishing in importance- and I know that there are several players who, seeing this, have already decided to leave the game.

Anyway, what do the developers see happening in the long run?

Thanks Mara, an excellent summary! I would add a couple of things:

In other words, we want to have back some bargaining power: at the moment, I have nothing to offer a Beta corp that it could not make on its own, and probably for a lower cost. Therefore, they have no reason to allow me on their island, and are free to charge me what they wish for their rare materials.

If those of us who specialized deeply into industry had something uniquely ours, then we would have some power to negotiate trade and passage with the Beta corps.

Basically, all T1 and T2 gear should be very easy to build, requiring only basic resources and short time periods. We understand that this would drastically lower their price, but that's the idea: so long as the combat-oriented players are swimming in basic ammo and gear, they'll keep at it, which in the long run benefits us more.

Start requiring beta components for T3 or T4 gear, and introduce another uniquely-beta resource for T5 and so forth: the low-end stuff should be cheap and plentiful; the high-end stuff should represent a risk to everyone involved.

1. T1 gear is farmable from npcs and doesnt need to be build at all -> no market value for beta corps, they gain it on the fly while farming Kernels for NIC income.

2. Because of the previous point and the rank3 recycling plants on Beta, T2 equipment is also pretty easy to build for a beta-corp.

3. making low-end gear cheaper to build would make specialiced industrials for it unnecessary. especially ammo.

4. the game either has to few minerals/comodities, or the basic and advanced stuff dont have enough diversity in their component list.
   Together with Caetan post, you can see that trading between islands can't really be established. if you scrap one mineral from an island, they wont be able to build ~80% of the basic stuff. for example, remove titan ore from any island, and they have to import it even for their basic equip - not good

This is true. But Mara and I were discussing the smaller corps and independents. Besides, we're arguing that T1 gear should have little value. It requires little risk, no?

Again, we've been discussing smaller corps and independents. Beta corps are self-sufficient- the current problem is that there is no reason at all for a Beta corp to negotiate with smaller corps or independents: they have all of the resources, and all of the facilities ready at hand. All we can offer them is target practice, or maybe slightly cheaper ores.

It already is- nobody specializes in T1 or T2 gear, nor should anyone have to: it needs to be cheap and easy to find. Again: low rewards for low risks.

We would welcome a greater diversity in T4 components, but only if there were a mechanism that would give us small corps and independents some power to negotiate. At the moment, there is none.

Trading between two beta islands is not a concern. Rather, we are interested in the role of industrialists in the game. At the moment, it appears to be shrinking, and we want to know if that will continue.

Well there is a reason for a beta corp to work with smaller corps.

To gain numbers.

This can be done in so many ways. Some of them are pretty horrific.

Once the alpha corp goes to beta, it becomes fun, they hamper down. The people are happy farming all day. Only a few pvpers from their ranks go out and defend. Soon though the farming people become so farmed that any change in mechanics which makes them have to work more, makes them leave or get frustrated. The left over guys, the ones that defend, then get recruited in and bam, your alliance has more numbers.

Thus without the opportunity for the smaller corps to have some kind of way in, besides joining .... you see this big fat monster eating everything...

An approach that covers several of the thnigs asked for in here - yes also indu bonus :

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/16332/#p16332

If you read my next sentance

I'm saying just that, the predetors are not dying like they should from lack of prey and there is the imbalance in the status quo. But I like biology so I don't mind taking that class again...

The analogy is to show that Beta doesn't need alpha, but alpha players need beta; the imbalance is just causing the alpha players to give up, or go to beta once and get killed, and give up. Talking about small corps, not large ex-beta corps like Ecorp or NA that had time to fatten up on beta before being pushed to alpha.

There is NO way for an alpha based corp to gain any kind of power in this game, at best they can scratch out a meger existance - in comparison to beta corps.

Its an observation, not a call for any change, because like I said there are no game mechanics that can be changed to fix it; the game just favors large alliances.

edit; the larger the better, which is why Infestation is hoping the Hoop breaks up

Yes, your correct, the reference to 'grass' destroyed the analogy. The term I used was prey though, which is what I meant, tooth and claw is still prey to the larger predetor. The premise is the same.

An arguement could be made that miners are a type of herbivore... but thats not what you meant, which is that all players are in some sense predetors, which I agree; but some players are more like prey than others.

Maybe I wasn't really clear, because I'm all for generating more reasons for PVP, and for alpha players to go to beta.

What maybe got lost in the noise of my animal cracker analogy is that forcing players that have little to no practice at PVP coming from alpha up against players that do nothing but PVP is like sending them to be slaughtered.

Now, its even worse without insurance, because it puts all the financial burden again on the novice pvper. The learning curve exceeds your ability to pay for new bots as a solo player and is maybe just sustainable in a small 2-3 person corporation. Even assuming they do learn how to PVP, they still haven't gain anything productive yet, and certainly can't protect any kind of mining OP for epitron.

... aside from the PM saying "u mad" after getting a bot blown up, there is no reward for going to PVP unless your in a large group that can actually protect miners, but there are no 'dungeon finder' tools or anything else where players can try to get a group together to attack beta. And with the population so low your almost assured of getting an alt of the beta group in even if you could... but that's another issue.