Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Cal Sinai wrote:

If you guys are thinking you can jump into this game, and a week later be an amazing mech pilot, you have no idea what game this one is heavily influenced by. (Hint: it starts with an 'E' and ends with an 'E', and there's a 'V' in the middle.)

Hate to say it, but... go back to WoW.


They are not saying that at all.

What they mean is within a few weeks, they can be amazing bot pilots, and for what they want to do, that is all they need.

lack of meaningful character progression is the key here.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

It seems pretty obvious the progression is meant to influence people to move from alpha -> beta when they outgrow assaults, they just need to make that transition more appealing/easier.  It's either that or lots more alpha islands with spawns of mechs, negating the value of beta atm.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Balsover wrote:
Cal Sinai wrote:

If you guys are thinking you can jump into this game, and a week later be an amazing mech pilot, you have no idea what game this one is heavily influenced by. (Hint: it starts with an 'E' and ends with an 'E', and there's a 'V' in the middle.)

Hate to say it, but... go back to WoW.


They are not saying that at all.

What they mean is within a few weeks, they can be amazing bot pilots, and for what they want to do, that is all they need.

lack of meaningful character progression is the key here.

I'm failing to see the lack of meaningful character progression. Every minute you get additional skillpoints to invest in skills to make your character better. If you consider that to be a "lack of meaningful character progression" then I think you are confusing the meaning of the word "lack" (Inego Montoya voice: "I do not think that word means what you think it means.").

I fully agree that mission rewards for higher level missions need to be tweaked. But beyond that, mechs do exactly what they are meant to. And the community complaining about perceived balance issues between mechs and robots when nobody in game has more than 8 weeks worth of skillpoints is both ridiculous and short sighted.

29 (edited by Tiggus 2010-12-21 21:21:52)

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

You can look at the values of medium equipment and see that mechs will never be needed/efficient to kill assaults and light bots, and that is all alpha is at the moment.  That is what he is saying, and he is correct in that.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Tiggus wrote:

You can look at the values of medium equipment and see that mechs will never be needed/efficient to kill assaults and light bots, and that is all alpha is at the moment.  That is what he is saying, and he is correct in that.

Exactly. Just like you don't go rabbit hunting with an elephant gun. Not only is it more difficult to hit your target, the ammo is more expensive as well, and if you do hit it, you're not very likely to get anything worthwhile. Less reward for a larger investment is never a good idea.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Cal Sinai wrote:

Hate to say it, but... go back to WoW.

There actually is so many new games coming out that I have trouble trying to figure out what to subscribe for. That is no threat or bravado, but just the plain truth. I'm almost certain it's the same for everyone else too.

I don't know if that comment about playing WoW is supposed to be offensive or what, but I hear that said a lot. Maybe you should put your selfishness aside and think whats good for the game.

It actually is very easy for someone to leave this game and not look back. As this is one of the few games where you almost "need" to subscribe even if you don't play. So it's not like you can leave and check back 1 year later when things are fixed.

I'm sure the devs are jumping in joy whenever someone trys to defend the game by using that WoW comment.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Can't help but agree, there are 3 kinds of players here, PvE'er PvP'er and those who like both, problem is this game needs all these groups to ensure there is a continuing desire and thus request for more content in both areas of the game, if one starts to slide the other suffers.

PvE is a major factor when new players arrive, its these players that will keep PvP dynamic and interesting else we will have a slowly dwindling PvP population with no new blood, which gets very boring very quickly, I personally believe another Alpha Island wouldnt actually be a bad thing at this point, one designed to cater to the PvE crowd ready to move past the original alpha islands. I know many a PvPer may say that would result in the beta islands suffering, but they will suffer much more if the PvE crowd dissappear.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

the question is ., . now with the respec will ppl change direct to mechs¿?..

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

El Meromero wrote:

the question is ., . now with the respec will ppl change direct to mechs¿?..

I will be. They are cheap enough, so why not?

35 (edited by Shinain 2010-12-23 17:44:03)

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Cal Sinai wrote:
Tiggus wrote:

You can look at the values of medium equipment and see that mechs will never be needed/efficient to kill assaults and light bots, and that is all alpha is at the moment.  That is what he is saying, and he is correct in that.

Exactly. Just like you don't go rabbit hunting with an elephant gun. Not only is it more difficult to hit your target, the ammo is more expensive as well, and if you do hit it, you're not very likely to get anything worthwhile. Less reward for a larger investment is never a good idea.

I have to disagree. Its not harder to hit with an "elephant gun" and on the other hand... your rabbit (light bot) could try to bite the elephant (mech) as often as he likes...the elephant barely would notice it (there should be no dmg).

When i want to get rid of a rabbit, i can use a elephant gun, a RPG-7 or even a M1 Abraham. Probably there is nothing left to loot but to hit...this is not the problem. BTW the rabbits we are talking about have the size of a big car up to a truck.

Its the same fault as in EVE....a cruiser (or two or three) should never have any chance against a battle ship, a Sherman (or 2...3) never against a M1 and a pack of light bots should not have any chance against a Mech...and a Mech with medium weapons should not have any problems to hit (..a truck).

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Shinain wrote:

I have to disagree. Its not harder to hit with an "elephant gun" and on the other hand... your rabbit (light bot) could try to bite the elephant (mech) as often as he likes...the elephant barely would notice it (there should be no dmg).

When i want to get rid of a rabbit, i can use a elephant gun, a RPG-7 or even a M1 Abraham. Probably there is nothing left to loot but to hit...this is not the problem. BTW the rabbits we are talking about have the size of a big car up to a truck.

Its the same fault as in EVE....a cruiser (or two or three) should never have any chance against a battle ship, a Sherman (or 2...3) never against a M1 and a pack of light bots should not have any chance against a Mech...and a Mech with medium weapons should not have any problems to hit (..a truck).

Ever try to hit a moving jeep with a tank?  By the time you have aligned the weapon, the target has moved.  Granted, the jeep can't do much to the tank, but his "friends" might be able to.  Same with any weapon platform, just because it is bigger and has larger armament, does not mean it is suited for all situations.  Otherwise, why do we still need infantry?  And, btw, some of those infantry do carry "tank killers". 

Stop thinking in terms of 1 vs 1, or the " I haz the biggest toy, therefore i iz imperviouz!".  Tactics, strategy, teamwork, can ALWAYS pwn a more powerful opponent if properly applied.  Mechs should not be fielded without support, and that support should have the capablitiy of intercepting smaller and faster opponents. 

As far as stEVE, yes, smaller ships could take out larger, and should be able to!  That battleship has no business being out solo without support, and if he was, he deserved to die.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

37 (edited by Annihilator 2010-12-23 18:00:35)

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Lt. Cmdr. Matt T. Sherman (Operation Petticoat) wrote:

We sunk a truck! Let's get the hell out of here!

that was submarine vs. tanker

but to get on topic:

what do those M1A2 tank drivers in Iraq fear the most: infantry with RPGs and good aming skills.
Is infantry obsolete because we got tanks?

small bots/assaults are INFANTRY.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Even "in our world" (and not to talk about an space traveling civilization) an modern tank can hit a driving jeep (and also a non direct hit also blows the jeep).

I fully agree to the support, team and tactics part, but not fully to your point of view. Mechs are the "pack horses" of battles (or should be it in the future of this game if there is any), there should be a lot of them on the battlefields and a "few" strategic support units (second row...third row).

But i really fear that it will end up like in EVE... 80% of all standard pvp (except bigger events) will be that vaga/wolf whatever skirmish thingies. Dozens of e-war bots and "low cost vehicles". BTW isnt it senseless that  a bot with a accu power of a few hundred is able to create a force field to slow something that has a weight of 20-25 times of itself. hmmm endless discussion.


@Annihilator
As far as i know...4 M1 were lost in Iraq...and im not sure if even one was destroyed by a infantry attack.
Light bots and assault bots are infantry? Ok, they should die like infantry when hit.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Shinain wrote:

@Annihilator
As far as i know...4 M1 were lost in Iraq...and im not sure if even one was destroyed by a infantry attack.
Light bots and assault bots are infantry? Ok, they should die like infantry when hit.


Start war with country that has something else than 60's RPG's and see how it goes.

Iran is a good start, it has already managed to upgrade it's stuff to 80's and early 90's.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Shinain wrote:

But i really fear that it will end up like in EVE... 80% of all standard pvp (except bigger events) will be that vaga/wolf whatever skirmish thingies. Dozens of e-war bots and "low cost vehicles".

Continual "high cost" bot combat is unsustainable. Even with unlimited resources it take time to roll mechs off the line, and they die much faster than they can be produced; and no one has unlimited resources either.

If there is some game mechanic that stops low cost bot combat, then pvp will be 10-20 minutes of pew pew and 5-6 days of nothing.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Arga wrote:

Continual "high cost" bot combat is unsustainable. Even with unlimited resources it take time to roll mechs off the line, and they die much faster than they can be produced; and no one has unlimited resources either.

If there is some game mechanic that stops low cost bot combat, then pvp will be 10-20 minutes of pew pew and 5-6 days of nothing.

This is correct: think of old-fashioned naval warfare, where most of the actions happened between smaller ships such as destroyers and light cruisers, not battleships. The big capital ships were much less common, and when they did show up, they had a support group with them.

I think you see the same thing in EVE, and, when you think about it, that's really how it should be: the big mechs should be in a minority, and always supported by smaller, more specialized bots.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Yep, you don't commit your 'big guns' for skirmishes or mechs PVP roams... not until mechs become the low cost bots that is.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Siddy wrote:
Shinain wrote:

@Annihilator
As far as i know...4 M1 were lost in Iraq...and im not sure if even one was destroyed by a infantry attack.
Light bots and assault bots are infantry? Ok, they should die like infantry when hit.


Start war with country that has something else than 60's RPG's and see how it goes.

Iran is a good start, it has already managed to upgrade it's stuff to 80's and early 90's.

That would fit...the M1 for example is from the early 80´s too ( the concept several years older). Its not hollywood...you cant take cover behind the door of a car in a firefight and you need a real big punch to destroy a tank (even with something like Milan its not a one hit thing).


Arga wrote:

If there is some game mechanic that stops low cost bot combat, then pvp will be 10-20 minutes of pew pew and 5-6 days of nothing.

Probably something has to be changed with the ressource/producing balance. Its a new game and a few weeks old (public) and i hope that that is not the future pvp target of the game. It will be very boring and many new player will leave after few weeks of playing (most of them want to pilot the mechs...not the small spider like cans).
Alpha """full""", Beta almost dead and pvp means to fight against the same 55 ppl over and over again...except a few alpha player that got strayed using the wrong teleporters.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Cal Sinai wrote:

If you guys are thinking you can jump into this game, and a week later be an amazing mech pilot, you have no idea what game this one is heavily influenced by. (Hint: it starts with an 'E' and ends with an 'E', and there's a 'V' in the middle.)

Hate to say it, but... go back to WoW.

Huh, well I play EVE and I agree with the other posters that this game does seem to be lacking in any kind of logical bot progression or higher purpose.

You absolutely CAN make more money in your assault bot farming L1 mission spawns. So why do L2 missions? Good question!

And what's the purpose of PvP in Perpetuum right now? For fun? To learn about PvP? I need a REASON to go to the beta islands and wade through gate gankers. If the game gives me a good reason, I'll gladly organize a squad to go bust some skulls in PvP. But so far, I haven't heard or seen any compelling reason to go to the beta islands. If I want to PvP just for the sake of it, I'll just flag myself and run around on the alpha island. No need to make a long trip anywhere.

So at the end of the day, we have a shell of a game here. It has potential, yes. But the problem is, after a month of grinding missions and AFK mining, there is nothing new for carebears to do. Go to the Beta island and grind more missions and mine more ore? Why? So I can have the added risk of getting ganked by a swarm of desperate PvPers?

So yes, please tell everyone to go back to WoW. That's an excellent way to fix the problems with this game. People like YOU need to go back to WoW, because the rest of us want a better game.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Arga wrote:

Yep, you don't commit your 'big guns' for skirmishes or mechs PVP roams... not until mechs become the low cost bots that is.

Thats what i hope...Mechs become standard and the "capital ships" like Savon mentioned will be implemented later. In my opinion Mechs should not be the "capital ships"

Right at the moment i think/fear, that it will stay a bug fight sad

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Shinain wrote:

It will be very boring and many new player will leave after few weeks of playing (most of them want to pilot the mechs...not the small spider like cans).

If new pilots could get into mechs, and afford to lose them, they would be the new 'low cost bot'. Then it would be boring blobs of mechs in combat.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Arga wrote:

If new pilots could get into mechs, and afford to lose them, they would be the new 'low cost bot'. Then it would be boring blobs of mechs in combat.

Exactly. If you want to have anything other than blobs, you need to make the cost of some mechs prohibitive, so only a corp could afford them, and only a few of them at that.

Of course, they should have correspondingly high firepower, and be able to take a lot of damage- you don't need another battleship to take out a battleship, but you do need a heck of a lot of guns.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

48 (edited by Shinain 2010-12-23 22:24:34)

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

What are new pilots? 1 week, 3 weeks, 20 weeks? Most ppl play for fun and thats for sure something individual. If it is the case, that 80% of all player have to sit in these spider bots for months and months, then for sure behind the 80% will be a real small number.

There has to be a progression for an average player (for example the ones with a real life that can play a few-some hours a week) and the target cant be to sit in a small metal spider or to say "hey, just another 7 months and i can pilot a mech. wohoo".
I personally fight in a mech on alpha...well, less dps than the assault bot and it takes a bit longer to destroy a target  but there is a pretty simple reason: its more fun.

The Mech (class) should be a big step in the middle (and a big difference to light / assault bots!). Heavy mechs (class)  are the next step youll need more time/money to get there. There can be a lot of different types Mechs (size, faction, role whatever).

A high end thing for corps could be some kind of capital class vehicles / special Mechs. The potential is big enough, even air or water units are possible (and that could really put a lot more tactics in this game) and these units should be the "not every day on a battlefield vehicles"...not a normal Mech.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Shin,

Dec 2011 - Mechs are expensive and take a lot of EP to drive. Very few are used in PVP, most combat is with light and assult bots because they are cheap; there is lots of cheap battles, and few expensive battle with mechs.

Dec 2012 - Mechs are cheap and everyone has the EP to drive them. They are used in PVP all the time. The Heavy Assualt Tank is expensive and takes 12 months of EP to drive, very few players have them and they are not used in PVP.

The point: The bulk of PVP will always be between cheap bots. There will always be a bot that players are drooling over to drive, but will not be used in general PVP because they are too damn expensive.

As a side note: Its still going to be relative to how much you play though. Even if you have the EP your still going to need NIC to buy and replace your bot, whatever model you are driving. Players that are on 4 hours a day are going to outdistance the 4 hour a week players. OMG.. I'm going to say it... if you want level progression go play wow (I FEEL SO DIRTY!!!  LOL). But seriously hard core players that put in a lot of time are just going to be able to afford better equipment. Casual players will need to join a generous Corp to compete.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

As this game progress's so will the players and also the "standard" of bot.

Personally I came into this game knowing that I would need to get most of not all of my support skills to 5+ before I got in a Mech, there are allot of players out there that have in my opinion jumped the gun a little early expecting to be proficient in a Mech with limited skills to drive it.

Also as this game grows 3 Alpha Island is not going to be enough to sustain the pve population so I would expect to see more Island popping up, maybe Charlie Islands lol, maybe a mid point between open pvp and sub pvp (low sec)