Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

wow, hunter, yesterday i told Alexadar that i am happy that the topic was up and constructive for 24 hours, without flaming and namecalling...

@ Alexadar:
its nice to base something around the thought of thousand of active player - which havent been ever in game since the server went online. How do you archieve such a playercount, if you cannot keep the ones in that currently play?

why do they leave? either because they join a powerblock which HAS already archieved most things you can archieve in this game, or you try to start from ground up and face the odds of having to go with a system that is based on something that is not present.

result: you quit the game until the thousand player are here (notice how counterproductive that is?)

The game mechanics have to work for everyone: the single online player with only one account, or the micromanagement nerd with his china-farm-rig and 10+ accounts.
They have to work with 10 or 10k player present. Hoping to repeate the "EvE" developement is dreaming!

but thats not the topic.

i have kept my points short for a reason: gather opinions and suggestions on those points, not on what i think about those.

Things that bother me are that i have to go through so many kernels and get stuff that i will never build, because there will never be a demand for them (eg. aux ractor, chassis-scanner, cargo scanner, ...). Sooner or later there will be more modules be added, always 4 tiers. and their knowledge will be spread along the existing few types of kernels. it will make it harder to research anything, even more kernels needed to finish "standard" items, which are 90% loot and need no prototyping at all.

a degrading KB is something noone want under the current system, neither do i want it.

to be continued...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Annihilator wrote:

wow, hunter, yesterday i told Alexadar that i am happy that the topic was up and constructive for 24 hours, without flaming and namecalling...

@ Alexadar:
its nice to base something around the thought of thousand of active player - which havent been ever in game since the server went online. How do you archieve such a playercount, if you cannot keep the ones in that currently play?

.......................

to be continued...

Annihilator... Pleaze stop your useless flood... Let's play perpetuum! smile

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Hugh - prototypes are not sold on market because the people having the research do not want to flood the market with the items after having invested billions on NIC. If I sold you a prototype, you start manufacture and sell on the market. You start becoming my competitor and drag down prices a lot. You might think I'm overreacting, but with a single prototype you can make at least 100 of an item. For me to be willing to sell this prototype to you, I should account for all the sales you are taking fro me, which will lead to an insanely high price. Furthermore, even if I'd be willing to sell the prototype, why would I do it through the market? That way I have no way of controlling who gets hold of the valuable commodity.

TL;DR - High-end prototypes are unlikely to be seen on the market (unless the research becomes very common, but then it's not high-end)

it is similar to blueprints in EVE (I think CTs are more close however). You can buyt different ME/PE level blueprints and build things yourself. Actualy there are people that specialise in research and copy and do nothing else.

I know this will not work at the current player count, but since CTs are not a market item (for whatever reason), prototypes are the only item with the closest functionality.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

TL;DR - High-end prototypes are unlikely to be seen on the market (unless the research becomes very common, but then it's not high-end)

Lupus you are not trying to extrapolate game.
In addition to my post above:
Assuming this game is for lot of players. Sooner or later this game will get few thousandths players online, because its designed for it. If alot of players will play this game, market will be rich with kernels because most of new players are "great pwners" and they need to sold a loot for money, what they can use to buy a gear.
Before kernels will rise in price, alt of prototypers will buy large ammount of kernels. After this moment first t2 prototypes will appear on market, because according to the theory of probability at least few percents of freshly developed prototypers want to get some money for their investments.
After new players will enter a beta, after players will establish new alliances, market will got highlevel kernels, what will got first high level mech kernels.
After high level kernels will stabilise in price, first t3 prototypes will appear on market, because more solo prototypers will be able to compete on market. Finally, one of the capitalistic corp will sell first t4 prototype, because they will need some money. Capitalistic corporations, who will research t4 modules will do it. Im sure you.

Yes, for now you will not see alot of prototypes in the market, but the game designed to be NIC based and full of market orders , so sooner or later this will happened.

And if research system will be adjusted for current players, it can have hard consequences for new players and wide playerbase.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

I don't how industry works here beyond what I barely remember from the tutorial but in eve there were research corporations that copied/researched BPs for customers. Can't some carebear corp do the same for CTs here?

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Hugh Ruka wrote:
Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Hugh - prototypes are not sold on market because the people having the research do not want to flood the market with the items after having invested billions on NIC. If I sold you a prototype, you start manufacture and sell on the market. You start becoming my competitor and drag down prices a lot. You might think I'm overreacting, but with a single prototype you can make at least 100 of an item. For me to be willing to sell this prototype to you, I should account for all the sales you are taking fro me, which will lead to an insanely high price. Furthermore, even if I'd be willing to sell the prototype, why would I do it through the market? That way I have no way of controlling who gets hold of the valuable commodity.

TL;DR - High-end prototypes are unlikely to be seen on the market (unless the research becomes very common, but then it's not high-end)

it is similar to blueprints in EVE (I think CTs are more close however). You can buyt different ME/PE level blueprints and build things yourself. Actualy there are people that specialise in research and copy and do nothing else.

I know this will not work at the current player count, but since CTs are not a market item (for whatever reason), prototypes are the only item with the closest functionality.

To clarify some confusions. YES prototypes will be available at some point, and they already are to some extent. But they are and will be expensive. I maintain these trade won't be cleared that much via the market as the prototypers prefer to know who buys it, and they want to avoid the taxes on the large transactions.

However, they are priced based on the income stream they can generate rather than the cost of making them (which is similar to the T2 BPO's in eve I guess). But, with you're reasoning that market prices are far too high, you wouldn't be willing to accept something even remotely close to this price. If you are expecting to get prototypes at close to cost-of-making, I think you're hoping for too much (unless you want T4 medium autocannon!).

Alexadar, indeed, when research is widely attained prototypes will be much easier to buy. However, I only said they wouldn't be available for high-end items (or at least in very restricted amounts). Just because T4 is high-end today, does not mean it will be in 2 years, so then you can't apply my logic. However, then there might be T5 items, for which my logic indeed holds.


All the above is really besides the point, prototypes can currently be attained, at the right price. The essential question is whether the research system should be changed. I would really want caution here, this is really a core-feature, and making big changes here can really have significant impacts (potentially very bad).

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

BandwagonX9000 wrote:

I don't how industry works here beyond what I barely remember from the tutorial but in eve there were research corporations that copied/researched BPs for customers. Can't some carebear corp do the same for CTs here?

In a sense a prototype is a T2 blueprint copy for 100-200 items. What I've tried to say is that the people possessing the research will not sell this at a price that is much below the profit that could be generated from it. Hence, prices are fairly high.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Lucius Marcellus wrote:
BandwagonX9000 wrote:

I don't how industry works here beyond what I barely remember from the tutorial but in eve there were research corporations that copied/researched BPs for customers. Can't some carebear corp do the same for CTs here?

In a sense a prototype is a T2 blueprint copy for 100-200 items. What I've tried to say is that the people possessing the research will not sell this at a price that is much below the profit that could be generated from it. Hence, prices are fairly high.

this is difficult ... since there are NO prototypes on the open market, there is not way to actualy get a price estimate.

T2 BPCs were never realy expensive, because you could control the quality of the copy (and the runs that one can make). T2 materials were the bottleneck in many cases. the situation is not exactly true in PO.

any well researched BPO was expensive. it took time, SP and money to get there. also research slots were a premium from a certain point in time.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

CTS cannot be sold on market because of the underlaying item-structure is built.

CTs are "unique" items, you cannot stack them because they would lose their variable stats (just like you cannot stack damage items)

we would need a third market (after EC-shop will be added with next patch) for CTs and similar items. Actually an "auction house" where you sell SINGLE items, perhaps with player names behind the items.

bachground knowledge for the young ones: perpetuum beta started with a blueprint system and extension based "what blueprints you could use"

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

35 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-09-29 17:03:10)

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Hugh, yes of course it's difficult to get an estimate, but just contact people who can make them if you're so interested. You can't just say there's none of the market so therefore it's impossible to get. If you were seriously considering it, think about how much it would be worth to you and make some offers to people who has the research.

And to clarify the analogue, prototypes are like a very high-quality long-run T2 BPC, and so is really quite valuable.

Annihilator - I agree with you that trading CTs would be a good thing, and they would require a different platform. However, as far as this discussion goes, sharing a prototype and a CT is fairly similar (only a decoder between!).

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

Another factor to consider is rarity of the materials, like Hugh points out.

In some cases, players working toward T4 research aren't interested in selling on the market, they are looking to be self-suffcient. These are the players that Lucius is talking about selling CTs to directly, where instead of producing 100 T4 mining lasers, you are sold at an upfront cost, and the prototyper doesn't have to do the logistics of the production.

Norgalis is already over 100 NIC per unit at the current T4 production rates. If there is a change to the system that allows another 100 players to reach T4, that is going to put a huge demand on the market for that material (as well as epitron) which will drive the price up.

Price of T4 on the market could easily go up 25% and may even double, and T4 will STILL only be available in limited supply. The only people to benefit from easier research are the corporations that were looking to provide modules internally in the first place; presumably with thier own supply of materials, just lacking in technology.

I'm not saying that this mechanic can't be upgraded somehow, but access to producing High-end (T4 now, T5 later or whatever) has to be gated. Anything that makes it faster to gain high-end research is going to upset game balance...

Actually, what I mean by that is the production 'potential' of high-end items needs to be limited. The current method is to limit the number of players capable of producing high-end and limiting the supply of materials for that production.

Those 2 work together to balance availablity. This isn't market availablity, but just availablity in general.

The fact that there are large corporations out there that where able to complete the research while the devs where tuning research speed is a different issue. Because infact its not the corporations that have T4 research completed, its the players. If those players leave, the corporation is back in the same game as any other corp. This is also why it's not a good idea to tie research to corporations. Corps breaking up or having internal issues is how other corps can gain research instantly.

tl;dr - High-end production can't be common. At least now its a 'grind' and not a timed gated, meaning that anyone 'could' get to T4 with enough help, opposed to a time system that only allows vetern players to reach T4.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

I mostly agree with you Arga. However, as a prototype seller it is difficult to ensure the CT will only be used for internal use. And even assuming such trust could be established, I don't personally feel like subsiding their internal demand (as otherwise they'd be forced to buy from market). All this of course changes if you know each other well, but I don't think that's the assumption we should work on.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

It was less about the marketing value then to tie that concept back into making it easier for that corp to get thier own prototyper up by making research easier; that is a corp may want to purchase a PT other then for resale. The extension of that however is, the demand on the market for T4 would also drop as the price rose, simply because those corps that were buying for internal use off the market would now also be producing internally.

--- Assuming reaserch to t4 became 'easier' and production was limited only by resources.

While there are a few solo players buying T4 PVP gear off the market now, its genearlly PVE and Indy, as PVP corps either don't use T4 or produce it themselves.

If new corps were able to reach T4 quickly, the PVE and indy open market would also dry up.

The price of T4 would go up because of norgalis, the demand would go down, because the pool of buyers able to afford at that price would decrease, as well as the removal of the demand from small corps that are now able to build it themselves.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

The current system is far from perfect, but the suggested changes make bigger problems than the current ones. For the most part, leave the current system alone.

The one thing I would suggest looking at is the staggered rate at which research items (particularly nexus modules) become available for research.  I don't remember the specifics, but the following has happened to me several times, most recently the other day with some T3 assault kernels I traded with Mouse Tiger (my green for his blue).  I only had 2 T3 items left to finish with blue T3 assaults (T3 demob and a T3 nexus module).  The 100 I got from Mouse Tiger finsihed off the T3 nexus module, but also STARTED another T3 nexus module that had never been available to research before!! (where was this one when I ate the first 1k+ kernels?).  The current system of finishing the research on a "trigger" item opening research on another item of the same tier is terrible.  All items currently in-game of the same tier and class should be available for research at the same time.

Re: Knowledge base / Prototyping

You could also be unlucky on the second roll?
"Second roll" first the kernels rolls for having stuff in it, second roll determines what do you get. (or at least that's how I understand kernels)

<GargajCNS> we maim to please