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This is such a dumb idea.
Free stuff for doing literally nothing at all.
Games are not always 'fun', that's not the definition of a game, and not all games are played for leisure.
I guess everyone here play videogames for leisure (some play for money, but lets leave that aside since is just a small minority). Fun is subjective and everyone has a different taste in that. Some people find wow great; some people don't. Some people find Eve the uttermost boring thing in the universe; some people find it the coolest. You can't try to argue what things are 'fun'. The only sure thing is that gaming is a way for leisure for the grand majority here.
The casual game market has made billions of dollars on Fun/Leisure games like angry birds and farmville. Coming from a serious raiding guild in Wow, I can tell you that parts of that game were fun, but the most rewarding part of the game came from the challenging parts.
How can you conclude that everyone find the 'challenging parts' more fun? If casual games are more popular, the evidence points that the majority of the gamers prefer instant gratification instead of long challenging plays. You can make a case that you like 'slower' gratification games, but thats for you only.
But, this is a persistent challenging world, and the addition of random challenge-free resources doesn't fit.
If you can find money on the ground walking on the street, why can't the same thing happen on a GAME?
Personally, I don't thing this will add or take anything big from the game. I think I will quit the game for lack of things to do. Reading some protests here about adding a small simple random treasure on the world makes me fell that the game will stay the same for a long time...
Arga wrote:But, this is a persistent challenging world, and the addition of random challenge-free resources doesn't fit.
If you can find money on the ground walking on the street, why can't the same thing happen on a GAME?
Personally, I don't thing this will add or take anything big from the game. I think I will quit the game for lack of things to do. Reading some protests here about adding a small simple random treasure on the world makes me fell that the game will stay the same for a long time...
Something for nothing....... How does the free cheese taste??
I certainly can say I will not miss you if your idea of content is a random magical box of goodness. It also appears from your comments that you are totally unwillingly to put forth any EFFORT other then to ask for more free cheese......
I suggest only beta islands to have this.
Something for nothing....... How does the free cheese taste??
How is going on beta "no effort"?
You have to be prepared for anything, it's not like a walk in a park.
It should be very rare, but substantial (talking about risk versus reward).
At least more people would be interested to go there, arkhes are welcome too.
I suggest only beta islands to have this.
Scyylla wrote:Something for nothing....... How does the free cheese taste??
How is going on beta "no effort"?
You have to be prepared for anything, it's not like a walk in a park.It should be very rare, but substantial (talking about risk versus reward).
At least more people would be interested to go there, arkhes are welcome too.
For the most part my experiences on beta were a walk in the park....... That is what has a lot of folks up in arms and asking for reasons to stimulate pvp. I can't count the number of times that past and current corpies have spent hours ninja mining epi on beta islands. The only thing they were prepared for was making NIC.
Running around in an arkhe on a beta island has no risk... What are you going to lose?? Absolutely nothing because the bot is free! You want a reward for walking around a beta island? Kill the ninja miners and take their epi......
Once again--- herp derping around on any island shouldn't give you a reward. You should never get something for nothing in a sandbox game..........
/me waves hand and says "This is not the free cheese you are looking for."
Can I get some Nic every time I undock please?
OK, let's put it another way.
Say there is a lottery event every day on a random beta island and you get a free ticket when you set foot on the island in anything other than an arkhe.
For heavier bots, you get more tickets, more chances to win.
Each day, at a random hour, there is a draw and only the people already on the island can participate.
If the island is empty, the prize of the day is lost.
If you win, you receive a message saying you have one hour to find and claim your prize.
The prize must be valuable, to entice people to come looking for it; could be an unique bot augmentation, or a prototype, or a new type of resource.
Is this better?
Don't you think more people would come to beta, if you show them the carrot?
As a consequence, wouldn't this stimulate pvp?
Plus, winning the lottery is fun!
OK, let's put it another way.
Say there is a lottery event every day on a random beta island and you get a free ticket when you set foot on the island in anything other than an arkhe.
For heavier bots, you get more tickets, more chances to win.Each day, at a random hour, there is a draw and only the people already on the island can participate.
If the island is empty, the prize of the day is lost.If you win, you receive a message saying you have one hour to find and claim your prize.
The prize must be valuable, to entice people to come looking for it; could be an unique bot augmentation, or a prototype, or a new type of resource.
Is this better?
Don't you think more people would come to beta, if you show them the carrot?
As a consequence, wouldn't this stimulate pvp?Plus, winning the lottery is fun!
OMFG........ Just OMFG.............................
For the sake of humanity don't reproduce............
Stainless wrote:OK, let's put it another way.
Say there is a lottery event every day on a random beta island and you get a free ticket when you set foot on the island in anything other than an arkhe.
For heavier bots, you get more tickets, more chances to win.Each day, at a random hour, there is a draw and only the people already on the island can participate.
If the island is empty, the prize of the day is lost.If you win, you receive a message saying you have one hour to find and claim your prize.
The prize must be valuable, to entice people to come looking for it; could be an unique bot augmentation, or a prototype, or a new type of resource.
Is this better?
Don't you think more people would come to beta, if you show them the carrot?
As a consequence, wouldn't this stimulate pvp?Plus, winning the lottery is fun!
OMFG........ Just OMFG.............................
For the sake of humanity don't reproduce............
HAHAHHAHAH Scyylla....I love you
For the sake of humanity don't reproduce............
Too late.
meh
HAHAHHAHAH Scyylla....I love you
^^And you can have his babies.
I am sure he likes your "arguments" better.
Loot Theory:
"For the majority of gamers, once the novelty is gone, they move on. To keep players interested, rewards are required. ... The Diablo series is a perfect example of the theory in effect. Just as in the story of the donkey and the carrot, a game's rewards cannot be too frequent, nor can it be too infrequent. If rewards are too frequent, they lose value in the eyes of the player, and they lose interest. If the rewards are too infrequent, the player loses sight of the carrot, and likely loses motivation to keep playing."
I don't think it would be a bad idea to have some "stumble on" artifacts in the game world. create 10 of the stumble upon artifacts in the game world, with a 50m (approx) appear radius.
If you think random is not good enough, connect it with the traffic watching app. Area with no traffic? Drop some arties!
Is it something for nothing? Yes it is.
Could it be abused? I am not sure, I would say no.
Is it entertaining? In my mind it is.
This is a game not real world, let people have something for free from time to time.
Scyylla wrote:For the sake of humanity don't reproduce............
Too late.
0110011100001111001010001 wrote:meh
0110011100001111001010001 wrote:HAHAHHAHAH Scyylla....I love you
^^And you can have his babies.
I am sure he likes your "arguments" better.Loot Theory:
"For the majority of gamers, once the novelty is gone, they move on. To keep players interested, rewards are required. ... The Diablo series is a perfect example of the theory in effect. Just as in the story of the donkey and the carrot, a game's rewards cannot be too frequent, nor can it be too infrequent. If rewards are too frequent, they lose value in the eyes of the player, and they lose interest. If the rewards are too infrequent, the player loses sight of the carrot, and likely loses motivation to keep playing."
You have absolutely no clue how sandbox MMO's work.....
As I have said before, it is up to the players to design the sand in this genre of games. If all you want is the free cheese leave now and do the game a favor. If, on the other hand, you want to actually improve upon the game-- get out of the free cheese line expend some effort into your own entertainment.
What you fail to realize is the EFFORT you expend for your own entertainment feeds into the EFFORTS of other players. Whether you see it or not what you do in this game impacts every other player's entertainment. That is the fundamental basis for a sandbox MMO. They are by design driven by player EFFORT.
What it really boils down to is:
If you aren't willing to take some ownership of your individual entertainment, you are a cancer to the game. Sandbox MMO's are not the genre for you. Go back to Diablo or button mashing zombies to death on a console. You will get more enjoyment there and you won't be a malignancy to this game.
I don't think it would be a bad idea to have some "stumble on" artifacts in the game world. create 10 of the stumble upon artifacts in the game world, with a 50m (approx) appear radius.
If you think random is not good enough, connect it with the traffic watching app. Area with no traffic? Drop some arties!Is it something for nothing? Yes it is.
Could it be abused? I am not sure, I would say no.
Is it entertaining? In my mind it is.This is a game not real world, let people have something for free from time to time.
The problem with giving freebies (which is exactly what this would be) is that it supports the entitlement mentality.
You give a beggar a dollar one day and what happens the next day? He and three other dregs of humanity are waiting outside your door with their hand out. Then all of a sudden you walk out of your house one day and all you see is a crowd of extended hands wanting something for nothing.........
The analogy above is no different then what would happen in this game. The lazy, unwashed masses would constantly ask for more "somethings" for nothing. The whining and complaining would become legendary as the couch potatoe gamers complained that the random magical box of goodness doesn't spawn on the runways or right outside the terminal. Then the complaints would escalate and occupy more AC resources....The inclusion of freebies like this just leads to the entitlement crowd wanting more free cheese.
Norrdec wrote:I don't think it would be a bad idea to have some "stumble on" artifacts in the game world. create 10 of the stumble upon artifacts in the game world, with a 50m (approx) appear radius.
If you think random is not good enough, connect it with the traffic watching app. Area with no traffic? Drop some arties!Is it something for nothing? Yes it is.
Could it be abused? I am not sure, I would say no.
Is it entertaining? In my mind it is.This is a game not real world, let people have something for free from time to time.
The problem with giving freebies (which is exactly what this would be) is that it supports the entitlement mentality.
You give a beggar a dollar one day and what happens the next day? He and three other dregs of humanity are waiting outside your door with their hand out. Then all of a sudden you walk out of your house one day and all you see is a crowd of extended hands wanting something for nothing.........
Dude are you somehow mentally challenged? I feel pity for your pathetic and ridiculous mind.
Scyylla wrote:Norrdec wrote:I don't think it would be a bad idea to have some "stumble on" artifacts in the game world. create 10 of the stumble upon artifacts in the game world, with a 50m (approx) appear radius.
If you think random is not good enough, connect it with the traffic watching app. Area with no traffic? Drop some arties!Is it something for nothing? Yes it is.
Could it be abused? I am not sure, I would say no.
Is it entertaining? In my mind it is.This is a game not real world, let people have something for free from time to time.
The problem with giving freebies (which is exactly what this would be) is that it supports the entitlement mentality.
You give a beggar a dollar one day and what happens the next day? He and three other dregs of humanity are waiting outside your door with their hand out. Then all of a sudden you walk out of your house one day and all you see is a crowd of extended hands wanting something for nothing.........
Dude are you somehow mentally challenged? I feel pity for your pathetic and ridiculous mind.
What I am is a realist and someone who has no pity and/or sympathy for someone who is not willing to do for themselves.
Finally a thread worth something
What I am is a realist and someone who has no pity and/or sympathy for someone who is not willing to do for themselves.
Why are you posting here, then? Shouldn't you be starting up a new thread about how you think we should build our own NPCs to shoot instead of having them handed to us? Or that you want highways to cost NIC/second to use instead of them just sitting there for our effortless benefit? Why should a market interface be handed to you when there are field cans and credit transfers? And if players are truly supposed to "design the sand," shouldn't you be petitioning to have all the rules and graphics removed from the game so we can make them ourselves?
Don't kid yourself. You might be less generous with handouts. But you are in favour of them.
Scyylla wrote:What I am is a realist and someone who has no pity and/or sympathy for someone who is not willing to do for themselves.
Why are you posting here, then? Shouldn't you be starting up a new thread about how you think we should build our own NPCs to shoot instead of having them handed to us? Or that you want highways to cost NIC/second to use instead of them just sitting there for our effortless benefit? Why should a market interface be handed to you when there are field cans and credit transfers? And if players are truly supposed to "design the sand," shouldn't you be petitioning to have all the rules and graphics removed from the game so we can make them ourselves?
Don't kid yourself. You might be less generous with handouts. But you are in favour of them.
I am posting here because people like you fail to understand the realities of a sandbox and the consequences of catering to the entitlement crowd that you either are a part of or sympathize towards.
As a courtesy to you and your lack of coherent reasoning as to why the Devs should entertain a free cheese line I will once again explain the sandbox to you and your free cheese partners.
The Devs build the box:
Story
Setting
Graphics
The rules of the box
etc... all of this and then some is the sand they supply us with.
The players design the sand:
Control of beta
Building the items
Joining forces to accomplish goals-- ie form corps/alliances
Decide what ways they can design the sand within the box to fit their play style.
Research
PVP
PVE
Mining
Trading
etc.... we the players make the designs in the sand within the box and the rules the Devs supply us with.
Even though your post was designed to be about as sarcastic as it could be I felt the desire to show the flaws in it anyway!
Now go back to your free cheese line. Maybe they have a different kind to hand you as a reward for your lack of effort.
We need to stop this talk about all of these cheap hand outs and get back to the real topic at hand.
Where is my NIC for just undocking. This better be in the next patch or I will rage quit with my 200 accounts, or over half the server.
Isn't artifact scanning 'something for exploring the island'?? I know I have pretty much walked to every point on tellesis in the last month doing this...
Even though your post was designed to be about as sarcastic as it could be I felt the desire to show the flaws in it anyway!
I was actually quite serious. And you failed to show any flaws. You did clarify your definitions, but that's not the same thing.
The fact is, there is no hard line between handouts and core game design in a sandbox. Name any game mechanic, suggested or implemented, and I can outline a point of view for calling it part of the box, and another point of view calling it a handout.
By your own categories, if a patch added the random loot and the Devs said, "this is how the game is now," it would fall under "the rules of the box." By your own definitions, you'd be forced to accept it as part of the box.
And what are highways if not "effortless benefit?" If you're against accidental effortless benefit (random loot), how could you possibly be okay with guaranteed effortless benefit (highways)? Any argument that shows highways are a non-handout would also apply to random loot: if one is a handout, so is the other. But I don't see you demanding that highways be removed.
Scyylla wrote:Even though your post was designed to be about as sarcastic as it could be I felt the desire to show the flaws in it anyway!
I was actually quite serious. And you failed to show any flaws. You did clarify your definitions, but that's not the same thing.
The fact is, there is no hard line between handouts and core game design in a sandbox. Name any game mechanic, suggested or implemented, and I can outline a point of view for calling it part of the box, and another point of view calling it a handout.
By your own categories, if a patch added the random loot and the Devs said, "this is how the game is now," it would fall under "the rules of the box." By your own definitions, you'd be forced to accept it as part of the box.
And what are highways if not "effortless benefit?" If you're against accidental effortless benefit (random loot), how could you possibly be okay with guaranteed effortless benefit (highways)? Any argument that shows highways are a non-handout would also apply to random loot: if one is a handout, so is the other. But I don't see you demanding that highways be removed.
Your argument was flawed because there was no argument. You did not present anything that supported the premise of random magical boxes of goodness.. The most you did in your earlier post was attempt to state that I am in favor of free cheese. Which I am not. By further detailing my arguments against the inclusion of effortless rewards it points out your lack of argument.
Once again, in the post linked above you fail to state any good reasons to support or for that matter not support the free cheese boxes. Once again all you do is try to explain how I support the free cheese line......
You did hit the nail on the head with one point in your last post:
"By your own categories, if a patch added the random loot and the Devs said, "this is how the game is now," it would fall under "the rules of the box." By your own definitions, you'd be forced to accept it as part of the box."
Should the Devs decide to change the rules of the box or mix in different color sand, then so be it. It becomes part of the sandbox at that point and nobody has any control or any recourse (other then unsub if they disagree that strongly) to the change.
The point of my posts, which thus far has eluded you, against adding effortless rewards as suggested by the OP is to express my views to the readers and Devs. From what I have seen, the Devs in this game do a great job listening to player feedback. I want to ensure that my feedback is heard on this topic by the Devs and by the player base who choose to browse the forums.
*** To further my case that the "something for nothing crew" will always want more freebies just look at the evolution of their posts. The freebies have gone from wanting things of little to no value to wanting highly valuable drops. There are posts that talk about rare drops and other posts that want frequent drops....... It isn't even a feature, yet the hands are already out....................
... against adding effortless rewards as suggested by the OP ...
Who said anything about effortless?
It's the beta island version of exploring (without a geoscanner).
You still have to find it (and it may not be as easy as you think...). What if it's guarded?
I am surprised that you do not see the bigger picture here.
Are we not surrounded by advertisement offering “free” things?
There is always a catch, isn't it?
Like that “free” entrance for girls at a night club.
“ Come in girls, it's free!”. Only the smart ones realize there is a hidden cost.
There are no freebees.
Same here.
It may be easy to go on beta now, when it takes hours to see someone there, but this could change when more people are lured in.
“Free stuff, come get it!”.
People will go there like moths to a flame.
This leads to competition.
Competition is PvP.
Didn't you want more PvP? How does it matter how it started?
Want "free" cheese?
Scyylla wrote:... against adding effortless rewards as suggested by the OP ...
Who said anything about effortless?
It's the beta island version of exploring (without a geoscanner).
You still have to find it (and it may not be as easy as you think...). What if it's guarded?I am surprised that you do not see the bigger picture here.
Are we not surrounded by advertisement offering “free” things?
There is always a catch, isn't it?Like that “free” entrance for girls at a night club.
“ Come in girls, it's free!”. Only the smart ones realize there is a hidden cost.
There are no freebees.Same here.
It may be easy to go on beta now, when it takes hours to see someone there, but this could change when more people are lured in.“Free stuff, come get it!”.
People will go there like moths to a flame.
This leads to competition.
Competition is PvP.Didn't you want more PvP? How does it matter how it started?
Want "free" cheese?
You are a bit closer to an acceptable alternative with the idea of a guarded spawn container. The first thing that came to mind when I read that statement was:
They just implemented escalating spawns that give better rewards (more kernels) and the islands already have random wandering spawns of haulers. If the idea of wandering hauler spawns that give some of the hardest to come by (and most valuable kernels) and escalating spawns that give higher rewards then a standard spawn isn't enough to get more action on beta how exactly will a random guarded box do it?
Also, a guarded box requires EFFORT to obtain. Not just that, but then the idea becomes a parallel to artifact scanning (a game feature we already have to encourage exploring other islands). Even having no npc babysitting a box is a direct conflict with science and salvage sites. Why replace or compete with this feature which takes only a small EP investment and some elbow grease?
Encouraging PVP is something that we as players have a responsibility to do. The Devs give us the rules, the box and the sand. We design it. Certainly there are some changes coming like the beta outpost change. Hell, I would even be in favor of moving all level 3 artifact sites to beta under the premise of risk versus reward. There are most likely many other changes we aren't even aware of in the works. Ultimately the Devs can't force PVP. That is our job!
I will give you credit for atleast putting together an argument for adding this feature however I encourage you to read what some of the others have posted. Many of the people that like this idea want a freebie on all the islands not just beta.
The OP started this thread with discussions of a freebie of minimal value and it has escalted to items of significant value. It started as a rare find then escalated to a frequent find. It mirrors the addage of:
Give an Inch and They Will Take a Mile
Your argument was flawed because there was no argument.
This makes no sense. It can't be flawed if it doesn't exist.
You did not present anything that supported the premise of random magical boxes of goodness.
I never said this was my goal. I was arguing that your "no freebies" position is illusory. By showing that you actually do accept freebies, I also show that you shouldn't be so adamantly opposed to random drops (at least not on the basis of anti-freebie arguments).
I am not (in favour of free cheese).
I'm gonna call No True Scotsman on that.
There are posts that talk about rare drops and other posts that want frequent drops....... It isn't even a feature, yet the hands are already out...
That some people have crazy demands is not a reason to reject the feature outright. By analogy, if someone asks for Grophos to be able to one-shot everything in the game, it doesn't mean that all balance requests should be tossed out.
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