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(7 replies, posted in Open discussion)

Redline wrote:

1. It's a genre dependent decision - PVP and PVE ideally are interconnected with a political system that allows freedom to a certain extent.

2. Apart from poor game design the conceived inability to balance pvp means - is a design rule known as 'rolling op'. Its meant to be that way, so that a constant and dynamic discussion combined with hopes for changes which are 'close' and 'soon' - make people stick longer to a game.

With #1 I was really talking about skill/ability coding, I am not totally sure where your coming from there, as I perceive what your talking about to be overarching character interaction, not game coding.

However with #2.. I totally didn't think about that hook angle.. After too many years of Wow, I guess I was brainwashed enough it didn't dawn on me lol

Guildwars only begins to go as far as I think it would take to make an effective split where one does not get in the way of the other. and I tried to play Atlantica Online, but meh, didn't dig it, so I never got in far enough to see how it fares, but I bet not what I was thinking about as its still one world.

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(7 replies, posted in Open discussion)

you are totally right about the off topic part, didn't even think about that, so if a Mod can please move this, thank ya!

I think I do need to go back and clear up some things with my thought structure and grammar, edit up, apologies for the poor wording big_smile

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(7 replies, posted in Open discussion)

Immediate Disclaimer: this is in no way a request for changes to this or any other game or a desire to discuss the morality of PVP over PVE or vise versa.
Merely a desire to discuss an idea that has been roiling around in my head for some years now... apologies if any grammar offends here, in kind of a rush to get lunch smile

We will call it, the Skill System Design Disparity theory for now.

Part 1. True PVP and PVE game mechanics are, fundamentally incompatible.
Part 2. The only way to solve fundamental incompatibility is through total separation.

I will try to explain my thoughts as best as possible from both standpoints without using absolutes and making it a 5 page post

Part 1 ~PVP: One of the main things I have heard over the years is "balance" or the illusion there of. Sadly, I (personally) have never found a game that has any number of types of character archetypes where one has an equal chance of beating the rest as the next one, Non standardized class systems fair far better in this however, of course. This is mostly caused by the fact that the base combat system of "most" given games is based off of....
   
-PVE combat systems, they are (usually) based around the big 3 roles. The classic formula that works fantastic for killing X big boss with small variances for hybrids and such. This leads to the "paper rock scissors" effect in PVP, which I have usually only heard this bring about dismay... "it's not fair, I have no way around this or I can't break that, no one will ever be able to out damage this classes heals" and on and on.

Which leads us to the crux of the theory . The nerf wars, the design disparity, one side asks for this change which adversely effects the other, who then scream about this change and demands another that damages the other.. and we have the endless exponential downward spiral where no one ever wins.

Part 2. I would like to see once, perhaps as an experiment, a release of a game with the two different systems on different world instances. the separate instances to unquestioningly accommodate the wholesale differences in loot, economic, balance and player structure. All rules of loot, experience, market/auctions, gear settings, damage effects, non damage skill effects be it severity or duration and things of that nature would be tuned for the individual system/server. As for content, that’s one thing I am having trouble deciding, but leaning toward keeping it as equal as possible.

These worlds would contain the separate PVP and PVE skill systems, from planning to release. Even going so far as each "class archetype" if need be has a totally different skill line up than its other equivalent.. also not limited in the way that over time a whole new "class archetype" can be developed just for PVP or PVE as it may be. Basically you would need two dev teams, two (in-game) GM teams. (yeah I know that's double the cost, hence why have to call it a theory) wink No change to one system/server affects the other, Ever. (only necessary technical aspects aside of course)

The goal is that the PVP server/system has builds where given roughly equal gear and numbers of folks either group of an opposing force would have equal chance of victory. Totally avoiding scenarios where there is, for example, 3 papers v 3 rocks the papers have the autowin button. The PVE system, (for ease of conversation starts with) its tanks, healers, dps, hybrids with the chance to develop a whole new dynamic on its own as time goes on. (or you know whatever system is decided on, this is next step material.)

Possible world breakdowns: (aiming toward building a baseline.)
PVP "red" server is open PVP say from a reasonable tutorial area out. Containing a few tiers of looting, first step is cash and exp, then 1 piece gear and exp, then full loots with exp gain for winner and loss for loser.
Perhaps down the line, a few rare arenas or small zones of automatic character deletion upon death (with a small revive timer handled in some way for a little leeway, Example for our game, an emergency energy transfer so on.) with far far vaster rewards than even the step below it. (any suggestions to help flesh this part out are of course welcome) I take back the no instances because there is bound to be a way to work some PVP in there rightly.

PVE "blue" server is well.. obviously no PVP.. we all know how they work, (maybe duels wink don't need to drag that part out for this discussion.. You could also include a hardcore raid zone with the same before mentioned uber lootz, deletion rez chance.

No character moves between the systems/servers, ever. if you are a "blue" player and decide to roll on the "red" server then you chose your fate and will accept it as it comes. Red and Blue servers will never cross. I know it boils down to basically two different games with the same lore and engine, but I believe done properly it could be a damned fine gaming experience for both types of players

But as this is mostly a discussion for system mechanics and not server rules we can leave that part at that for now, unless someone has a desire to expand this later down the road.

Apologies for the poor wording the first time, hope this works better smile

(I reserve the right to edit this again later for clarity if need be) wink