Topic: Gamma Protection Timer's

Is it possible to have the protection timers on all gamma tele's reduced?

To me this would only make sense as this is a hostel place to run to anyway, so can we make it a less friendly "noob" environment, as well as its going to be extremely difficult to get any scouts into a side gamma, not to mention it will be impossible to kill a gate scout with 100% protection.

I don't want it to be reduced to zero, but give it just a bit more risk v. reward, then attackers will have a chance to kill a scout, and defenders will have a chance to kill attackers on the gate.

Personally I would like to see at the level of internal tele's on beta, maybe just a bit less.

This would ONLY pertain to Gamma to Gamma connections, NOT Gamma to Beta connections.

Regards.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

+1 no protection on gamma.

RIP PERPETUUM

3 (edited by Arga 2012-05-30 23:34:06)

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

I'm not going to outright disagree with this.

However, shortened protection on the external TP's would give players on the gate a significant advantage.

Where this would be most prevelent is the G1/G7 Islands just off beta, not at the B-G TP, but at the next G-G Teleport. Any corp setting up on these Islands could easily setup login traps at the (2) G-G TP's, and make access to the gamma strings much much risker than it would be with the existing timing.

I see the additional Risk here, but I don't see an offset for additional reward; other than rewarding the gate campers with additional kills, but their risk has not increased; the gate campers do have a risk, but the protection timer doesn't effect that risk.

The result of shortened timers, would be to give Gamma Island owners a greate ability to lock-down not only their Island, but access to any connected Island.

Again, I'm not saying the time shouldn't be reduced, or possibly even removed, simply that the consequence of that change will be to make gate camping highly prevalent, and possibly even mandatory, on gamma Islands.

Edit: "Merkle Trap ^2"

4 (edited by Merkle 2012-05-31 00:05:21)

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Arga wrote:

I'm not going to outright disagree with this.

However, shortened protection on the external TP's would give players on the gate a significant advantage.

Where this would be most prevelent is the G1/G7 Islands just off beta, not at the B-G TP, but at the next G-G Teleport. Any corp setting up on these Islands could easily setup login traps at the (2) G-G TP's, and make access to the gamma strings much much risker than it would be with the existing timing.

I see the additional Risk here, but I don't see an offset for additional reward; other than rewarding the gate campers with additional kills, but their risk has not increased; the gate campers do have a risk, but the protection timer doesn't effect that risk.

The result of shortened timers, would be to give Gamma Island owners a greate ability to lock-down not only their Island, but access to any connected Island.

Again, I'm not saying the time shouldn't be reduced, or possibly even removed, simply that the consequence of that change will be to make gate camping highly prevalent, and possibly even mandatory, on gamma Islands.

Edit: "Merkle Trap ^2"

I would respond to this, by thinking of the tele is just a extension of gamma.  If all of these islands were all together with no tele's there would be no protection whatsoever.

However, I do understand there is a natural choke point with the tele's thus I do believe there should be "some" protection, however, it should NOT be 100% as it is now, the protection is there just so the player can load his or her environment, and then make decisions from that point.

Another example is, lets say I do set a log off trap with a set of eyes on gamma, I see my target, I log in and kill said target.  Its gamma a full pvp zone thus I'm within my rights, my question, why should a gamma to gamma tele have such a great protection power, it needs to have just enough so players can load and make decisions on what they see.

As for the, well this island has beta connections and this island doesn't, to that I would say WONDERFUL, this is a GOOD thing, that means that not all of the islands are of equal value, and who knows, people might fight over said valued islands.

TDRL: Protection on gammas needs to only be there so that the player can load his/her client, and then make decisions.  It should not be used as another tool in PVP, again this is only for Gamma to Gamma connections.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Merkle wrote:

TDRL: Protection on gammas needs to only be there so that the player can load his/her client, and then make decisions.  It should not be used as another tool in PVP, again this is only for Gamma to Gamma connections.

I would agree with this too, but there is another mechanic in play, which is the destablization. And in this sense then Destablization is a PVP tool the camper is using (taking advantage of) that removes the decision for them jumping back out.

Since Destab is a PVP tool, working for the camper, then protection timer is simply a countering tool; not 'another' tool.

Remember there is already a difference between using the external TP's and using a field teleporter. The deployable TP protection timer is not 100% safe.

So, while players may be able to be 99% safe entering through the external TP, they are already taking a risk transiting to the next site; not to mention they have to be on that gate long enough for the deployed TP to charge up.

Worst case scenrio, at the external TP's, is the camper gets to force the jumper back. Which still accomplishes the goal of keeping them off the island. The reduced timer, will lead to placing (parking) high-alpha bots on TP's to convert those 'escapes' to 'kills'.

Again, this is now higher risk, where is the offsetting reward for those using the TPs?

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Perpetuum was good without gate camping.

7 (edited by Sundial 2012-05-31 03:21:30)

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

I can't wait to abuse the crap out of these timers, last time I did it several people rage quit lol

But in all seriousness Arga, the increased reward is operating out of gamma vs operating out of alpha/beta. That is increased reward... right?

Also, area denial is not the only goal one would hope to accomplish at war with another corporation. You would want to do direct NIC damage to them as well as gain NIC for yourself.

If anything at all needs to change there should be diminishing returns for syndicate protection on successive teleport jumps.

Some people will say gate camping is worse, some will say teleport games are worse. Obviously teleport games are silly and cause much rage to the people trying to kill you, gatecamps make mentally challenged souls rage.

As for my personal opinion: I don't think any game mechanics should protect you 100% on gamma. That is the job of your corp/alliance...

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

8 (edited by Lemon 2012-05-31 03:29:58)

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Hmm did someone say Gate Camping?

Oh you hear that, the tears? I think i can already hear them starting...

Successful scarab hunting...

A) isboxer configuration - Check
B) 3 Seth accounts-Check
C) Masking towers - Check


750 Hp......

My previous record was 25 lights in 48 seconds..... Please let me top this.

I think combining terraforming and masking towers on teleporters= GG jumping in... although i would be for a detection debuff within X distance of a teleporter to prevent little castel lvl 10 detector alts from safely pinging half your island in 1 go...

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

9 (edited by Arga 2012-05-31 17:25:23)

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

How about a detection and supression debuff in a 200m radius? And then add in a 5s window between protection and destab.

This actually gives the player jumping IN some choices.

With a -200% locking time supression, no one will be able to camp right on the TP.

With a high detection debuff, it does no good to jump in a scout to sit 'safe' on the gate.

Players now have a choice.

From a camping perspective, the player can still get locked and shot from 200m away, but they now have time to review the positioning and possibly get some LOS; opposed to allowing the gate camper to be right on them, with no chance of manuvering.

From a scouting perspective, players are going to have to risk that bot to get any information. Leaving the 'safe' area around the gate in order to actually determine if there's a gate fleet out there or not.

The overall jist though, is to move combat OFF the teleporters, not to make TP's the goto place for ganking.

Edit: Also, the slow lock time doesn't stop players from camping the gate, with some bots having sub 3s locktime, it may actually have to be boosted up to 300%, but in any case the supression is mainly to give the jumper time to make a choice in their window of opportunity. if they dally too long, a bot in the supression field will still be able to lock and kill them, so as a defender your still able to sit on the gate, and push off the scout, but if you want a chance to kill them, you'll have to move outside of the supression field.

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

How about a 5 second window that is added too each successive jump so one can't abusive the teleport mechanics and passive shield recharge to be semi invincible?

The debuff is a good idea too.

The goal here imo should be to stop teleport games from happening as a way to survive in a way that doesn't also screw you 100% when jumping through one time.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Sundial wrote:

How about a 5 second window that is added too each successive jump so one can't abusive the teleport mechanics and passive shield recharge to be semi invincible?

The debuff is a good idea too.

The goal here imo should be to stop teleport games from happening as a way to survive in a way that doesn't also screw you 100% when jumping through one time.

What you're labeling "teleport games" is just one of the decicions that jumper makes.

With the detection debuff, it does the jumper no good at all to sit on the gate, other then to possibly make the gate guard mad. They get no intel at all unless they move 200m off the gate.

While the jump penalty sounds good, the immediate exploit is simply to follow them the first time you push them out. As the pursuer, your not concerned with the timer, so it's basically the same problem; they jump in and they're dead. The 'choice' to jump back out is removed, simply because as the attacker you can follow them and take them at the next jump.

Basically - once your spotted, your dead.

Note: This is based on the working assumption that you've set up even a reasonable trap, with detector bots on both sides ect. ect. Which is what the mechanics have to assume so gates don't become the ultimate death trap. Sure, the lone ganker gate dude is now stymied by mechanics, but thats the trade off being made necessary by putting TP choke points in the game.

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Yes I understand, but what is stopping Joe Bloe from simply running to a teleport and be invincible to everything but a huge blob / multiple ictus?

My argument isn't so much about scouting as it is you shouldn't be able to retreat to a teleport for much increased safety.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Personally I'm ok with as little of protection as possible, most of all of you are assuming is that you should be able to get onto a hostel island safely.

I don't think this should be the case at all.  People should have to work a bit to attack AND defend, and both attackers AND defenders should not have a safe place where they can jump back and forth all day long, waiting for reinforcements.

This idea of gate camping is a fact that IS happening now and will continue to happen, personally, for betas to alphas, and gamma to beta's your hands should be held just a little bit, however for gamma to gamma connections, your hand should not be held at all.

Simply put, if you don't want ganked or killed, then don't go to gamma's, they should be reserved for TOTAL PVP, in any fashion the player can come up with.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Simply put, if you don't want ganked or killed, then don't go to gamma's, they should be reserved for TOTAL PVP, in any fashion the player can come up with.

That's a simplistic view, simply put.

Everything in PVP has to be balanced. If you want to call a TP a total PVP point, then you have to remove ALL the mechanics, including the destabilization. And even then, its a contrived choke point. If islands were arena PVP maps, there's no way the map would allow one team setup on the other's spawn point, before the game even started.

Suggestions that add risk for both attackers and defenders are balanced, suggestions that simply make defending/camping better, are not.

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Arga wrote:

Simply put, if you don't want ganked or killed, then don't go to gamma's, they should be reserved for TOTAL PVP, in any fashion the player can come up with.

That's a simplistic view, simply put.

Everything in PVP has to be balanced. If you want to call a TP a total PVP point, then you have to remove ALL the mechanics, including the destabilization. And even then, its a contrived choke point. If islands were arena PVP maps, there's no way the map would allow one team setup on the other's spawn point, before the game even started.

Suggestions that add risk for both attackers and defenders are balanced, suggestions that simply make defending/camping better, are not.

Comparing Perpetuum PVP to any arena PVP is a complete waste of time, in arena PVP things are made to be balanced (in terms of numbers, as well as possibly gear), in a sandbox PVP the last thing you want as a attacker (or defender) is to agress someone on their terms, or having a equal fight. 

Now that that is cleared up, to the topic at hand.
I'm all for the total removal of everything from Gamma to Gamma connections, I think that would be a wonderful thing.

I think your looking at this from a single side, lets say Agra and Merkle go out on a roam looking from some sexy kills.  We know a hostile force has been moving a heavy amount of indy bots in and off a certain tele.  Thus we setup a log off trap, with a friendly eye watching for movement.

Now there are two (simplest terms as its usually how it will happen) ways this could turn out.

The first is our friendly eye calls the target (a rivs with rivs friends, no escort) we log in and gank said target.  We now flagged up on a hostile island, attempting to de-flag and run, and we do, escaping successfully.

The second is nearly the same scenario, our eye calls the targets, we log in, and start to attack the targets, we are now flagged up on a hostile gamma, now the defenders log in, or mobile tele in, or even run in off a masking tower.  Now the tables have turned completely from a 100% advantage to the attackers to a much more favorable advantage to the defenders.  The defenders wipe Arga and Merkle, and both rivs made it out safely as the attackers were both flagged up and unable to jump out.

The techniques of both scenarios are valid, they are well within the game mechanics, as well as, they both take time to hash out, using multiple players, working together for a common goal.

Both are using the same set of rules, I do believe tho that the server DOES need a small protection JUST for loading purposes ONLY.

If we all want a game where scouting is 100 % percent free on gates, then it should be kept as it is, I personally do not want it that way, its gives attackers too much power to simply watch a gamma tele with zero risk, in a fully PVP zone.

Another solution would be to make all gammas have massive throw out radius.
Just a thought.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

-1 to decrease timer.

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Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

just make the gamma tp like the internal one in beta. when you use them they send you a bit out of the destination teleport and not just right under.

this way there is no jump and jump and jump for perma protection between 2 island.

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Why you guys want to ghank so many people by gate camping?  Why You no want to have real battles without ghanking people and using no tactics.  I think Merkle is clearly trying to promote the death of this game.  This is a horrible idea and anything that has to go with hurting the population -1 to RG trying to ruin the game once again.  Way to go Merkle with your bad ideas.

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http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Whys wrote:

just make the gamma tp like the internal one in beta. when you use them they send you a bit out of the destination teleport and not just right under.

this way there is no jump and jump and jump for perma protection between 2 island.


I think this would most likely be the best idea, a overall balance between completely removing it, and removing gate camping scouts.

Regards

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Gamma Protection Timer's

Whys wrote:

just make the gamma tp like the internal one in beta. when you use them they send you a bit out of the destination teleport and not just right under.

this way there is no jump and jump and jump for perma protection between 2 island.

I have to agree with Whys here. This possibly gives you a chance to escape depending on your bot.

+1

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.