Topic: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

big_smile

While there has been a large debate, although some time ago, about the instability timers I wanted to approach you guys with my version of things.

First I havn't reported this because I was exploiting it.  Second, I am now reporting it pre-emptively because I will seek a reimbursement for every loss suffered by this bug.

I say this is a bug because I don't believe it is performing in the way the Devs intended it to perform.

The "bug" is as follows:

Instability = molecular instability (ie the amount of time it takes the robots "molecules" to form a cohesive structure after teleporting from one zone to another, undocking etc.

Syndicate protection = a no-lock protective mode on jumping into areas to alleviate "unfair" gate blobbing issues or the capacity to eliminate another agent before the agent has actually rendered terrain and can "fight back".  This protection timer is specifically implemented to allow a time frame in which the local client can handshake with the server.

This all seems well and good, but here is what happens on terrain to people with terrible pings.  Such as US west coast, Alaska (me), and Australia...

OptiKhan clicks teleport / undock, OptiKhan "materializes" on terrain and only one timer starts.  The "protection" timer... why is that?  (cuz the Devs don't play) Aren't OptiKhan's molecules visible on terrain to the other agents in the area??  Don't the resident agents at the destination have a SIGNIFICANT advantage by seeing this agent materalizing before their eyes??  Yes, and yes.

So while OptiKhan's protection timer is running out, molecular instability HASN'T EVEN STARTED YET.

So... I ask you why is it that I can be killed after ANY TELEPORT action because from Alaska I can often experience such horrendous de-sync that my protection is completely worn out before I even begin the molecular count down?

How is that a "fair" mechanic from a so-called "playable game" point of view... and further how is this function even realistic??

It is NOT realistic at all, even in Hungary.  If molecules are visible on terrain the "molecular stability" should begin IMMEDIATELY.  Meanwhile since Syndicate protection is intended to allow a "fair fight" on landing the timers start points should be swapped.

Solution:  Begin protection timer when client handshakes (currently tied to molecular instability); Begin molecular timer when agent renders on terrain at destination (currently tied to syndicate protection).

SWAP THE TIMERS  !!!  All is well!

If people complain about too much time, and that enemies get a "free look" at beta side action, then thin out the protection timer.  Since it is tied to client rendering the terrain (out of the long *** black screen) then it can be much shorter in duration to allow about a 5 to 10 sec of protection before being lockable.

Please FIX !!!

Some people play checkers, some play chess...  Once in a while you can find a guy playing GO.  The former is prey, the secondary is a teacher, and the latter is a general.

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

actually, you are wrong

its not because the DEVs dont play,
its because PvP experienced Veterans, who said they know "how to play", asked for it to work exactly like it does right now.

reknown members of M2S, CIR, 77 and PHM have explicit asked for syndicate protection timers to be shorter then instability timers numerous times, ore else PvP would not be possible!

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

lol - okay Anni with the flames

so... you admit it is broken?

Some people play checkers, some play chess...  Once in a while you can find a guy playing GO.  The former is prey, the secondary is a teacher, and the latter is a general.

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

No, its working as intended and adds an element of risk to people scouting and using teleports to move out of a beta. Without it and with your suggestion any scout at a station or gate is unkillable.

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Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

Jita /fail

That is correct.  It is unkillable and only useful to look at the terrain around the "unkillable" ground.  Meanwhile there are several fits that accomplish the same thing.  Unkillable scouts.  So what?!!

This is a balance issue related to de-sync.  Not "fairness" in one factions capacity to gank agents in a black screen.

Some people play checkers, some play chess...  Once in a while you can find a guy playing GO.  The former is prey, the secondary is a teacher, and the latter is a general.

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

I would further point out that this "unkillable" zone only exists at 6 teleports and 3 beta terminals, out of how many on beta / gamma?

Really, you blobbers are worried about "unkillable" scouts?

Sad...   lol tongue

Some people play checkers, some play chess...  Once in a while you can find a guy playing GO.  The former is prey, the secondary is a teacher, and the latter is a general.

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

yes, it is broken
but molekular instability was implemented for the sole reason to be able to blob someone at teleports, instead of some more coding intensive measures for those two things that always come up... someone jumping back and forth at the same teleport to prevent beeing killed, and someone disconnecting (forced) at a black screen to escape.

because of those very special pvp only related issues, we have to wait at every damn station or teleport for that timer to run out.

the current scenario makes it even worse for those with bad connection.
not only does their timer start already later because of their bad connection - if there are 20 player waiting for them, or lots of NPC... it will make them have even more LAG after the black screen, since perps server doesn't send you what you cannot see, to prevent hacks bypassing detection/masking limits.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

Excellent feedback Anni, ty for that.

I would disagree with you, however, on a couple finer points:

Instability makes "sense" from a realism standpoint. 

You suggested that there are 2 main "reasons" for instability.  I suggest to you that your latter reason is flawed because there is currently code that makes a DC' absolutely silly to do as an "escape".  There is no escape with DC except in one instance and that "trick" is unavoidable under the current paradigm.  I won't spoil that trick here either, as it is clearly an exploit and I prefer not using or talking about exploits in public.

The first suggestion of a reason is totally flawed because jumping back and forth can be accomplished with a tanked unit anyway.  Inda can describe the silly fun he had with his tanked up Sequer on a beta / gamma port (even more dangerous) that despite the current molecular instability issues he was still able to escape our mighty grasp and run off freely.  Because we were flagged and he wasn't basically... so the molecular instability served its purpose in that event; specifically due to the extended stability related to a pvp flag.

So that is my retort for Anni.  Hopefully it remains well-received. 

cool

Some people play checkers, some play chess...  Once in a while you can find a guy playing GO.  The former is prey, the secondary is a teacher, and the latter is a general.

9 (edited by Race Drones 2016-01-11 20:10:26)

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

Perhaps DEVs can make "Syndicate Protection" and "Molecular Instability" start at the same moment. Both have not the same duration.

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Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

+1 to Opti

you dont have to be at Alaska, if you just have a worse PC or worse conenction you screwd.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

there are other ways to adress quick jumping back and forth...

also, in my opinion, everyone should have the RIGTH to defend himself with his weapons, without getting the same penalties as someone who is agressing. currenet flagging, stability and whatever artifical rules only allow dying or running away.

related, but a slightly different topic.

and no, you dont need to be in alaska... you just need to be next to the server and having 3 player in your squad running missions all day long, piling up missions in your mission window and you can welcome a very long black screen.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

As a person who had losses doe to long dark teleports I will add: there are the cases when you're hang while teleporting (especially between islands) and the only way is to force close client. Thing is that until you relogin you won't appear at all.

What's to the rest of stuff - despite of connection issues you shouldn't have protection lasts more that instability because other players need a timeframe to try and kill you. If you're prepared tanky bot - that's up to you but that's not the same that being unkillable because of protection.

Instead of changing stability/protection stuff, it's way better to deal with connection issues and lags

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Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

Even with rather short _typical_ ping I encounter especially in evening hours, but also when larger squad are moving or sometimes because of bad luck sometimes a protection timer beeing complete down, before client displays even terrain. Never nice to have direct TP in Terminal, but had this some times without living on the other side of the world.

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

I agree the current implementation of the instability and protection timers is too dependent on connection and I too am a long way away from the server. Make the syndicate protection start when agent visible (that should be when the molecular instability starts.

As for fixing the network/code issues that contribute to it, I think that sounds too hard - look how long it took for the dev's to find out is was plants contributing to the lag issue (Way after we told them and reproduced it on the test server)

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

Line wrote:

What's to the rest of stuff - despite of connection issues you shouldn't have protection lasts more that instability because other players need a timeframe to try and kill you. If you're prepared tanky bot - that's up to you but that's not the same that being unkillable because of protection.


Totally agree with this. Very cognizant observation.  Protection should never be longer than instability... however BOTH timers should be tied to client handshake rather than the current scheme.  Where the protection is timed to begin with server side render on terrain and instability that is tied to client handshake.

Some people play checkers, some play chess...  Once in a while you can find a guy playing GO.  The former is prey, the secondary is a teacher, and the latter is a general.

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

Another solution I had shared with me by I believe Rocky from NSE was to tie BOTH timers to a set amount of time, regardless of connection.  If your connection is bad or you are running a cardboard computer and can't render in reasonable time then you run that risk.  Be more careful with your ***.  But the current paradigm is flawed.


PLEASE FIX THIS!!!   winktonguelolyarr:cool:

Some people play checkers, some play chess...  Once in a while you can find a guy playing GO.  The former is prey, the secondary is a teacher, and the latter is a general.

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

OptiKhan wrote:

Another solution I had shared with me by I believe Rocky from NSE was to tie BOTH timers to a set amount of time, regardless of connection.  If your connection is bad or you are running a cardboard computer and can't render in reasonable time then you run that risk.  Be more careful with your ***.  But the current paradigm is flawed.


PLEASE FIX THIS!!!   winktonguelolyarr:cool:

remember, we have that syndicate protection timer there, because the robot appears on terrain as soon as the server is ready. the protection has a certain length to accomodate different loading times.

why there is no handshake to begin with, is one of the great coding mysteries of perpetuum - though, i have seen the very same missconception in other games, eg. "Firefall" (multi-million-coding team)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

I figured it out... here is the protection / molecular timer issues that hopefully could resolve the need to balance the "free look" at a pvp zone.

Require a beta or gamma teleport to be locked by the robot.

GG

Some people play checkers, some play chess...  Once in a while you can find a guy playing GO.  The former is prey, the secondary is a teacher, and the latter is a general.

Re: Protection timers and molecular stability - *BUG* *SPOILERS*

I can see the forum headlines now ... DEVs "fix" this "problem" Syndicate timers suffer bugs & hotfixes for the next year... Rivers of tears are spilt on the forums & killboards. Much popcorn is eaten. ....


Please let this happen yarr big_smile

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The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue