51 (edited by Nooodlzs 2015-03-29 04:17:26)

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Jita wrote:

ictus mk2 vs mesmer mk2 will result in a neuted out heavy every time. I dont get the hate.


That statement is utter bull, tried on test server against mesmer mk1 with mag weapons skills to 5, general firing to 5, no critical hit or dispersion skills trained, dead Ictus Mk2 and that is with NO reactor sealing on Mesmer and it still had 30% accum when Ictus died, also both accum skills were only to 7.

Standard fits were used, 3 t4 hardners on Ictus.

So a new player with minimum EP invested in a mesmer can kill an almost maxed Ictus pilot with ease.

Next test, Kain Mk1 on new player EP, Ictus managed to neut out the kain pretty convincingly, up those weapons skills to max and the Kane will destroy Ictus but it is very close

Next Test Kain Mk2 with max weapon skills, easy kill for the Kain.

This was all using standard chemo ammo on the blue bots, not PvP ammo BTW, try it yourself if you don't believe me and do not fit bots stupidly to back up your blatent false premise.

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

It depends on what you call stupid. I used a standard mesmer with an injector vs a two neut one drain ictus mk2 with an injector, 3 hardeners, 1 enwar and it wasn't even close.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

53 (edited by Nooodlzs 2015-03-29 12:48:46)

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Jita wrote:

It depends on what you call stupid. I used a standard mesmer with an injector vs a two neut one drain ictus mk2 with an injector, 3 hardeners, 1 enwar and it wasn't even close.

I will try those fits but withan injector on the Mesmer it will be even more decisive, my Ictus has 3 neuts btw not a drainer as we find drainers far too problematic with new improved jungle land, I also had an injector on Ictus.

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Nooodlzs wrote:
Jita wrote:

It depends on what you call stupid. I used a standard mesmer with an injector vs a two neut one drain ictus mk2 with an injector, 3 hardeners, 1 enwar and it wasn't even close.

I will try those fits but withan injector on the Mesmer it will be even more decisive, my Ictus has 3 neuts btw not a drainer as we find drainers far too problematic with new improved jungle land, I also had an injector on Ictus.

Three neuts will cap you out every time and theres your problem. Its not going to be the same one or two shots and your cap is gone any more, but your still capping someone out effectively while maintaining a great tank in 40 or so seconds from full cap. When your fighting mostly mid cap heavies your capping people out in 20 - 30 seconds.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

55 (edited by Nooodlzs 2015-03-29 14:59:45)

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Jita wrote:
Nooodlzs wrote:
Jita wrote:

It depends on what you call stupid. I used a standard mesmer with an injector vs a two neut one drain ictus mk2 with an injector, 3 hardeners, 1 enwar and it wasn't even close.

I will try those fits but withan injector on the Mesmer it will be even more decisive, my Ictus has 3 neuts btw not a drainer as we find drainers far too problematic with new improved jungle land, I also had an injector on Ictus.

Three neuts will cap you out every time and theres your problem. Its not going to be the same one or two shots and your cap is gone any more, but your still capping someone out effectively while maintaining a great tank in 40 or so seconds from full cap. When your fighting mostly mid cap heavies your capping people out in 20 - 30 seconds.

Nope you are definitly, wrong, the Ictus mk2 dies, everytime, t4 drainer and t4 enwar fitted, t2p injector and 3* t4 hardners, no reactor sealing on mesmer Mk2 and no injector, 50% accumalator left on mesmer, with the drainer the mesmer actually has more accumalator than when I have 3 neuts.

Same with Kain Mk2, yellow bots are even more savage on the Ictus and don't mention machine gun Seth, the Ictus is dead in seconds, fit reactor sealings and the Ictus is absolutely useless.

Either you have lied through ignorance or through malice as I noticed your prefered modus operanti at the moment would be under pressure from balanced ictuses.

56 (edited by Nooodlzs 2015-03-29 15:13:27)

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Also I will add that the Mesmer pilot I am using hasn't even fully maxed his skills on test server for a mesmer and is using standard ammo.

You say the Ictus has a great tank but in reality, even with 3 hardners (usually 2 on a Ictus for range needed of 2 sensor amps) it doesn't tank squat active armour tanks are far more efficient as the Ictus needs accumalator for both it's tank and to do it's role.


Once again I will ask, what role is the Ictus supposed to play at the state it is?

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

come on... kill that mesmer with your zenith or vagabond, not using cover that is.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

58 (edited by Nooodlzs 2015-03-29 18:49:14)

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Annihilator wrote:

come on... kill that mesmer with your zenith or vagabond, not using cover that is.

You are a blithering idiot and I claim my five pounds.

Ictus needs line of site for enwar, vagabond and zenith do not need LOS for their expertise.


People that have only trained into Ictus are redundant now, either pay RL money or do the waiting game for months to train into another Bot, same as Zenith pilots really, Vagabond are the only bot that seems to be getting used and not nearly as much as they used to, light bots for tackle are redundant. why is this?


Because of undemobable DPS online, that is why.

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Your a very wrong, very angry man that trades insults instead of facts.

http://youtu.be/BBgbY5NOzLc

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

I have given you facts Jita, even tried your so called improved fit and the Ictus is not useful against any turret bot, mech and above, even Tyrranos will easily kill it.

I ignored the personal insults directed at myself earlier in the thread because they were not constructive at all.

Now we have Anni, being sarcastic at my observations.

And still NONE of you can tell me what the supposed role of the Ictus is now in the state it is in.

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Nooodlzs wrote:

I have given you facts Jita, even tried your so called improved fit and the Ictus is not useful against any turret bot, mech and above, even Tyrranos will easily kill it.

I ignored the personal insults directed at myself earlier in the thread because they were not constructive at all.

Now we have Anni, being sarcastic at my observations.

And still NONE of you can tell me what the supposed role of the Ictus is now in the state it is in.

Ive posted a video showing facts, showing that it caps out a mesmer easily. Where are your facts?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

62 (edited by Burial 2015-03-29 21:34:24)

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

To be honest, I think it's irrelevant what goes out first when Ictus and heavy go toe-to-toe. Unlike ECM and suppression, neutralization disables for the duration it takes for the target to become (fully) operational again. What's the time difference between an Ictus dropping someone's accumulator to 0 versus it regaining it back through natural regen? Those are the numbers that count.

Now, something utterly batshit broken in my eyes are guns that don't require accumulator being on par with guns that do. Where's the sacrifice for not having to worry about accumulator?

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Falloff I thought. I like the debates though. Not in a sarrcastic way, I do enjoy seeing the difference on what people think is effective and what isn't

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Burial wrote:

To be honest, I think it's irrelevant what goes out first when Ictus and heavy go toe-to-toe. Unlike ECM and suppression, neutralization disables for the duration it takes for the target to become (fully) operational again. What's the time difference between an Ictus dropping someone's accumulator to 0 versus it regaining it back through natural regen?

Now, something utterly batshit broken in my eyes are guns that don't require accumulator being on par with guns that do. Where's the sacrifice for not having to worry about accumulator?

with the right setup, the ictus has the average recharge rate of a t4 medium injector without having need for ammo.

the only sacrifice from firearms was speed loss due to their high mass, but that hardly matters with the basic speed increase. (the mass/speed formula has always been a crap system). On the contrary, green bots are slow mostly because the launchers are so heavy.
It seems the DEVs are still to lazy to put in additional differences between weapons...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Jita wrote:

Ive posted a video showing facts, showing that it caps out a mesmer easily. Where are your facts?

Yes I watched that and it has left me scratching my head, in my test the Ictus died, every time leaving Mk1 mesmer with around 30% accum and Mk2 with 50% and this was with a character with low mesmer skills, fair enough my Ictus pilot (this char) isn't fully maxed on an Ictus but probably 85% maxed but I cannot see that making THAT much difference, I will max this char on test server and try again.

If it comes out that the problem is with the EP accumilation for an Ictus pilot, well there could be something wrong with the EP gain for Ictus skills per level and for a bot that really needs all skills as high and with as much EP you need to invest compared to DPS bots, maybe that needs looking at.

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

My mesmer is maxed but the ictus is maybe 80%.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

67 (edited by Nooodlzs 2015-03-30 14:22:03)

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Jita wrote:

My mesmer is maxed but the ictus is maybe 80%.


This comment now batters my head even more, so our Ictus pilots are roughly equivalent but my Mesmer pilot is not even near your level, yet my Mesmer pilot succeds and yours doesn't, mine doesn't even have the injector fitted.


Shrugs.

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

The point is you can *** a heavies cap in 40 or so seconds and a mech in half that with a shield dispersion of 0.1. Its hardly the earch shattering nerf people have talked about and the ictus is still very viable. Maybe its possible to out perform it in some situations with the seth mk2 but its 5 times the cost and has limitations.

In the big scheme of things screwed up with this patch I don't think the Ictus is a big deal personally.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

69 (edited by Celebro 2015-03-30 15:12:42)

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Jita wrote:

The point is you can *** a heavies cap in 40 or so seconds and a mech in half that with a shield dispersion of 0.1. Its hardly the earch shattering nerf people have talked about and the ictus is still very viable. Maybe its possible to out perform it in some situations with the seth mk2 but its 5 times the cost and has limitations.

In the big scheme of things screwed up with this patch I don't think the Ictus is a big deal personally.

Never balance on cost, CCP learned that the hard way, don't make the same mistakes.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Celebro wrote:

Never balance on cost, CCP learned that the hard way, don't make the same mistakes.

+1
Celebro is right, the rationale behind perhaps the ictus and the arablest(w/ T2P plates) is that cost outweighs the dis/advantages.
In the case of the arablest, T2P are 'expensive' therefore fitting that bot would be putting more NIC on the field.  But clearly the advantage gained with even a considerable expense of modules is a non-issue (especially for established players/vets/powerblock/etc vs newbs).

Same with the ictus vs. the more effective Seth platform.  Cost is supposed to outweigh the benefit, but still doesn't really.  Seth comes with more neuting power and tank!  Plus the same parenthetical above.

The irony is that the balance patch, in large part, was designed to close the gap from a low skilled player to a high skilled.  What isn't considered is that, typically, cost for a high skilled player becomes decreasingly a factor as their ability to accumulate wealth directly benefits from having higher skill levels.  Therefore the same justification used to drop the ictus and boost the arablest, and to keep them as-is despite these discoveries, is in contradiction to some of the goals of the patch. 

So if we took 'cost' off the table, could we agree Neut Seth>>Ictus in all cases, and T2P-Arablest>>other assault/scouts, in all cases? [Ignoring cost!]

If true for all cases: then we have a clear imbalance.

Why we should ignore cost, again, goes to the same original goals of the patch: mediating the playing-field between new and older players.

71 (edited by Celebro 2015-03-30 16:32:37)

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

logicalNegation wrote:
Celebro wrote:

Never balance on cost, CCP learned that the hard way, don't make the same mistakes.

+1
Celebro is right, the rationale behind perhaps the ictus and the arablest(w/ T2P plates) is that cost outweighs the dis/advantages.
In the case of the arablest, T2P are 'expensive' therefore fitting that bot would be putting more NIC on the field.  But clearly the advantage gained with even a considerable expense of modules is a non-issue (especially for established players/vets/powerblock/etc vs newbs).

Same with the ictus vs. the more effective Seth platform.  Cost is supposed to outweigh the benefit, but still doesn't really.  Seth comes with more neuting power and tank!  Plus the same parenthetical above.

The irony is that the balance patch, in large part, was designed to close the gap from a low skilled player to a high skilled.  What isn't considered is that, typically, cost for a high skilled player becomes decreasingly a factor as their ability to accumulate wealth directly benefits from having higher skill levels.  Therefore the same justification used to drop the ictus and boost the arablest, and to keep them as-is despite these discoveries, is in contradiction to some of the goals of the patch. 

So if we took 'cost' off the table, could we agree Neut Seth>>Ictus in all cases, and T2P-Arablest>>other assault/scouts, in all cases? [Ignoring cost!]

If true for all cases: then we have a clear imbalance.

Why we should ignore cost, again, goes to the same original goals of the patch: mediating the playing-field between new and older players.

Exactly, balancing on cost increases the 'player gap' . To balance properly vs cost, use role specialization with increased drawback. ie Buff Ictus role (energy draining) against reduced tank/speed or whatever. That way smart new players have a chance to 'win', whilst older players can have an edge.

RIP PERPETUUM

72 (edited by Phantomburn 2015-03-30 19:39:26)

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Jita wrote:

Your a very wrong, very angry man that trades insults instead of facts.

http://youtu.be/BBgbY5NOzLc

Couple things we have wrong here.

MK1 Mesmer Versus Ictus MK2.

1.  The MK1 Mesmer Is shooting Chemo ammo, change that to magnadart ammo, and the ictus falls like a sack of ***.
2.  The Mk1 Mesmer does not have a neut or drainer in it's chest.
3.  The Mesmer MK1 does not have ANY reactor sealings in it's leg slots.  So it has 0 defense for the ictus.
4.  Your standing <300 M apart.  All the Mesmer has to do is back up  to the Mesmer's optimal range or into some falloff and the ictus can not neut you because it doesn't have the range.
5.  Switch to AutoCannons on the Mesmer and you'll be singing a different toon.

Ictus Mk2:

1.  If you get Demobbed in that fit your ***.
2.  You have no range, so you have to get in subpar demob range in that Ictus.
3.  Your still considerably slower than the other races.
4.  You are dealing with LOS constantly as an Ictus pilot.  You HAVE to run the game with the terrain turned up or you will be neuting a wall 100% of the time.

In Closing:

I can kill an Ictus MK2 very easily when a Mesmer mk1 is fit correctly and shoots pvp ammo,  I don't even sweat with Autocannons.

Fun Fact:  If you take a Mesmer mk1 and you shoot at a target dummy.  Regard how long it takes you to cap yourself out.  Compare the time that it took Jita to cap out the Mesmer mk1 versus the Ictus versus the time it took you to cap yourself out shooting a target dummy, smile

Edit:  And you'll understand why Nooodlz is correct.

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

The ictus could use a special role like no LOS effects for them, and it would be viable again I think.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Phantomburn wrote:
Jita wrote:

Your a very wrong, very angry man that trades insults instead of facts.

http://youtu.be/BBgbY5NOzLc

Couple things we have wrong here.

MK1 Mesmer Versus Ictus MK2.

1.  The MK1 Mesmer Is shooting Chemo ammo, change that to magnadart ammo, and the ictus falls like a sack of ***.
2.  The Mk1 Mesmer does not have a neut or drainer in it's chest.
3.  The Mesmer MK1 does not have ANY reactor sealings in it's leg slots.  So it has 0 defense for the ictus.
4.  Your standing <300 M apart.  All the Mesmer has to do is back up  to the Mesmer's optimal range or into some falloff and the ictus can not neut you because it doesn't have the range.
5.  Switch to AutoCannons on the Mesmer and you'll be singing a different toon.

Ictus Mk2:

1.  If you get Demobbed in that fit your ***.
2.  You have no range, so you have to get in subpar demob range in that Ictus.
3.  Your still considerably slower than the other races.
4.  You are dealing with LOS constantly as an Ictus pilot.  You HAVE to run the game with the terrain turned up or you will be neuting a wall 100% of the time.

In Closing:

I can kill an Ictus MK2 very easily when a Mesmer mk1 is fit correctly and shoots pvp ammo,  I don't even sweat with Autocannons.

Fun Fact:  If you take a Mesmer mk1 and you shoot at a target dummy.  Regard how long it takes you to cap yourself out.  Compare the time that it took Jita to cap out the Mesmer mk1 versus the Ictus versus the time it took you to cap yourself out shooting a target dummy, smile

Edit:  And you'll understand why Nooodlz is correct.

i kept out of most of this for now...
but what the *** ... what a load of crap in this post...

yes the ictus is a bit underpowerd. but its far from what you make out of it.
of cource you can fit a mesmer to counter a icuts. or a seth, or a gropho. you could do that before the changes.
you can also fit a mesmer to counter a vaga, or a zenith ... or... or ...
but stay real. we talking about real pvp here. pls pilot that kind of mesmer next time on the beattlefields and you will be wiped of the floor because you will suck in any other way.

this here is no factual discussion. its a flaming around. stay real...

enough said.

Re: Post Balancing Patch.

Zortarg wrote:

i kept out of most of this for now...
but what the *** ... what a load of crap in this post...

yes the ictus is a bit underpowerd. but its far from what you make out of it.
of cource you can fit a mesmer to counter a icuts. or a seth, or a gropho. you could do that before the changes.
you can also fit a mesmer to counter a vaga, or a zenith ... or... or ...
but stay real. we talking about real pvp here. pls pilot that kind of mesmer next time on the beattlefields and you will be wiped of the floor because you will suck in any other way.

this here is no factual discussion. its a flaming around. stay real...

enough said.

I don't think the argement is can another bot counter the ictus, the arguement is that other bots do the Ictus mission (mech class nueter) better then the Ictus can. 
The ictus is currently worse at its job then other bots, so why would anyone want to be a Ictus pilot.  This is bad because many ppl have spent a $hit ton of EP into being green and/or Ictus pilots and now they feel screwed over.