Topic: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Way, way, way, way, back in day the when light bots used three components to build?

Castel:
Titanium
Plasteosine
Isopropentol

Then someone got the great idea of segmenting the Ores across the three different islands?  Then someone got the idea to add 7 components to the build list.

Castel:
Titanium
Plasteosine
Cryoperine
Axicoline
Isopropentol
Vitricyl
Phlobotil

Now here is the Idea, why don't we roll this back to the original production components?  Keeping Titan, Plasteosine, + one faction specific ore.  One of the biggest complaints I get from new guys wanting to produce is the large amount of ores to make ONE bot.  Why?  Why? do I need

1 Titanium = 75 Titan
1 Plasteosine = 50 Titan 25 HDT
1 Cryoperine = 25 Liquizit 50 HDT
1 Axicoline = 25 titan 50 Liquizit
1 Isopropentol = 50 Silgium 25 HDT 30 Triandulus
1 Vitricyl = 50 Silgium 25 HDT 30 Helioptris
1 Phlobotil = 50 Silgium 25 Liquizit 30 Triandulus

Listen guys I am for a "Complex" production cycle.  I get it.  But you have to do ALL that stuff to make a LIGHT bot.  And this is Important please listen, It is taking New Corps a Much longer time to get their production and industry up and rolling.  This is just a light bot production components list, it gets much worse for assaults SAME build list of components.  You add that up with having to PROTOTYPE those bots, GG your out 2 to 4 weeks for industry and your best bet is buying your bots off the market to pvp in.  Which isn't sustainable for new corps.  I suggest two different things that would help the economy, by lowing the price of bots and allowing corps to get their production up and running.

Light bots: 3 Components -> titan, Plasteo, faction specific ore +plant
Assault bots: 4 Components -> titan, plasteo, Axicoline, faction specific ore +plant

Mechs use 10 Components!  10 COMPONENTS.  I HAVE TO HAVE EVERY ORE IN THE GAME TO MAKE A MECH.  WHY?  WHY?  That's way too much.
Mech Bots should be like 5 Components Max.

AND WHY THE SLOW PRODUCTION TIME ON ASSAULTS?  We get only 2.5 Assaults in only 1 DAY!  We need at least 5 a day on the production time.  5 would 5 be game breaking?  I am talking 5 assaults in an alpha 2 station.

-Prototyping, we need another extension to increase the amount of prototypes.  We are bottle neck hardcore on them.  Expecially new guys who can only make like 2 protos (LOL)  And time on prototyping for bots is *** high.  We need it to be faster.

I know your wanting to take time to build up, but these new corps and guys need ability to get their *** up in gear and rolling.  They don't need to be self sufficient in 3 Months.  They need to be up and function in under a month.  I mean overall industry.

And to my next point: T2 gear.  It needs love.  It needs bonuses.  New guys need to competitive with the Vets rocking all T4.  If I get a 15% on a T4  and a noobie is rocking T2 with a 10% on a T2.  Why can't T2 get an 11.5 bonus or something, help close the gap of the OMFG T4 or GTFO!! 

So what you guys think?

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Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

+1

Needs to happen NAO!

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

+1

Don't get me started on prototyping time......

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Harden the *** up!

wink jk

Sounds reasonable.

Sparking to other games

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Way, way, way back ago light ewars didn't required Epriton - should we roll back to that too?

Have a productive day, runner!
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Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Ville's life is hard. Thr devs should make it easier!
-1

7 (edited by Rage Blackout 2014-06-06 07:21:51)

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

+1 we will be legends

Mark Zima wrote:

Ville's life is hard. Thr devs should make it easier!
-1

-1, because you wish it

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Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Personally I agree. I would also like to see bot and mech prototyping removed from the game. Its an unnecessary barrier to early production. Perhaps you could reverse engineer one for a maximum of 50p and reverse engineer a proto for a maximum of 150p. Something along those lines.

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Before removing something, try to balance it.

It's easy to remove things tongue

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Mark Zima wrote:

Ville's life is hard. Thr devs should make it easier!
-1

Ah yes the old," I DISAGREE BECAUSE YOUR WITH CIR", routine.  Try again please. This time with more common sense.

11 (edited by Burial 2014-06-06 10:31:11)

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Industry 4.0? Personally, I don't see a problem with bot prototyping, but then again, I'm not a new player.

What do new manufacturers think?

12 (edited by Doek 2014-06-06 11:49:37)

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

I like a lot of this.

- agreed with bots requiring less types of commodities - but not so with Mk2-variants
- I don't like faster production times and expanding prototyping slots, well I do, but not in light of improving industry in general cool (Zima has a point here)
- hell yes T2 needs *a lot* of love

If you really want to kick industry (and the economy) in the next gear: components on top of commodities. Bleed away some of that infinite minerals into a secondary industry.

Also, serious industry now is just having stacks of all materials.

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Titan, Plasteosine, + one faction specific ore to make a light bot.
That seems much more reasonable than what we have now.

I am all for Mk2 production, T4 production and other high end stuff requiring a variety of minerals though.

If I had my way you would be able to produce more items from each CT and the mineral cost of most things would go down considerably.

Imo there are two main reasons why the trade is stale in this game (and population is not a magic bullet here).

1) To become an effective producer basically requires self sufficiency.  New producers are in a catch 22, they can't start producing effectively without a tonne of kernels and components such as fragments.  They don't have the money to buy these things from the market (which moves slowly anyway).  What they end up doing is grinding (either solo or as a corp) on their pvp character and their pve character (god help them if they only have one account) until they can make what they/their corp needs. 
Once they have done this they find that the whole production process does not produce that much surplus.  They can make enough for themselves and corp but there is not much left to put on the market because their CT is now burned out and they have to start the whole process again.

2) There is not much demand for gear because not that many bots are being lost. There is no reason for most people to risk their bot in pvp zones so the demand for replacements is low.

In May there were 1508 pvp kills, that is a good month.  That is roughly 49 kills per day.  Now imagine that there are about 50 good producers active in the game on a daily basis (I would love to know the actual number).
On the one hand they would be just about able to produce enough gear to replace the lost items.  On the other hand there is no market demand for any extra gear that they may produce.  Lastly by the time they are well off enough to churn out T4 gear, they don't really need to sell it anyway.




TL;DR there are bottlenecks in both supply and demand for gear leading to a stale economy.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Line wrote:

Way, way, way back ago light ewars didn't required Epriton - should we roll back to that too?

0 epi would be sweet.

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15 (edited by Crepitus 2014-06-06 16:53:06)

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

+1, un - *** industry.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

the whole reason for that revamp of commodities and their usage kinda failed with the lack of factional pvp island resources, and with the inability to fit a single mech usable with only one factions materials (a thelodica mech will require at least a few blue commodities to build a yellow hardener, and a self-repair module.

ontop of that missconception, the fact that every ammo type ingame needs exactly the same number of materials per damage point listed on the ammo, but weapons are balanced about damage mods and RoF on those weapons -> resulting in ENERGY BEAMS consuming the most minerals and accumulator and NIC per final damage per second. (except med machineguns, they are even worse)

i never liked the prototyping system. its a useless step in creating a CT for production, that only resulted in the request to make those prototypes usable, where they could have implemented real variants for items.
IMHO the prototyping step is something that belongs to games where crafting can result in unique items, not predefined ones.

the thing i really want to see back - single ore commodities

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

17 (edited by Annihilator 2014-06-06 17:27:32)

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

double post

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

To the List You Go!

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

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Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

I honestly don't think what the vets need or want should be any kind of a factor in this.

Kaldenines raised valid points - for a newbie industrialist to come into the game and compete on the market is impossible. I have been saying this forever and a day, newbies cannot be expected to wait 3-6 months of gathering EP to be competitive because they simply won't do that. They will go and buy another game, and forget about this.

If you want them to stay, you need to get them engaged and involved in the game beyond the nihilistic idea of "eternal mining and grinding".

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Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Industrial system is fine, what is bad is the economy. No where to sell your stuff except to Jewoorders that vets put up because new players are desperate to get any nic they can. I don't know how to fix it but tbh I love the complexity of the industrial system and I think it kicks the *** out of eve online's industrial system. The only problem is the player base and the supply/demand being disproportionate. About the only way to make it a little easier for new players without giving up those unique characteristics that make this a better is maybe to allow the reverse engineering of normal bots for and mods for low level ct's and reverse engineer prototypes for much better CTs.

Or you could just make a contract system where players could buy and sell CTs other than on that this sorry excuse for a forum.

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

I am no economist but it seems to me that there just isn't enough stuff being blown up in the game to create a really vibrant economy.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Wow Ville!  That is a compelling argument! 

NO!

Just teasing!  Fantastic ideas!  If I knew more about industry besides nothing I could offer serious input.

-Ensi

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

okay this sounds like a good idea.

i would like to add that they break components up in to their separate raw mat erials like they do with titan ore refining in to titanium.  why make it so difficult to refine raw mat erials by adding other garbage in to the mix before being able to refine it.  it is dumb!

Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

The Grave Digger wrote:

okay this sounds like a good idea.

i would like to add that they break components up in to their separate raw mat erials like they do with titan ore refining in to titanium.  why make it so difficult to refine raw mat erials by adding other garbage in to the mix before being able to refine it.  it is dumb!

combine that with a zero-loss mechanic that doesn't punish noobs for "compressing" their goods by refining them for before putting on market or transporting them.

simple fact:

Wikipedia wrote:

Refining (as in non-metallurgical uses) consists of purifying an impure material, in this case a metal. It is to be distinguished from other processes such as smelting and calcining in that those two involve a chemical change to the raw material, whereas in refining, the final material is usually identical chemically to the original one, only it is purer. The processes used are of many types, including pyrometallurgical and hydrometallurgical techniques.

just make "refining" time based, loss-less and "processing" faster and skill dependant under the same extension.

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Re: Lower the Commodities in production of bots.

Burial wrote:

Industry 4.0? Personally, I don't see a problem with bot prototyping, but then again, I'm not a new player.

What do new manufacturers think?

Proto ME 5/5/5 and a 50 station is 120% of a standard Bot or 12 in for the CT.

Add to that the 15% I lose to delta even with perfect refining, add to that the 20% or so over perfect even with 10/10/9 Factory ME, the real numbers on raw is over 200% of the 'perfect' number shown for anyone but an end game Industry squad.

It's top down balancing, we have all seen it before.