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Topic: Robot Balancing

Hello fellow Niani's all 9 of you in general chat.  Today we are going to look at the extreme mismatch of heavy mk2 robots.  The following post is to talk about WHY Seth's online is happening with example links filled full of helpful information.  Let's begin:

Mesmer MK2:  Basic no mod Stock L10 extension player.
http://i.imgur.com/A89BKEn.png

Ville's comments:
The reason I put the Mesmer's bonuses next to a basic weapon tuner is to show that 1 weapon turn is about the equivalence of a L7 | L8 skill player.  Meaning Veteran players are the equivalence of 1 tuner.  For the balancing idea to bring new players to the same competition as veteran players in damage/skills it is a great idea.  The problem starts with the difference in Head slots/leg slots in robots.  This idea ONLY WORKS IF THE SAME HEAD SLOTS AND LEG SLOTS EXIST IN EVERY ROBOT IN IT'S TIER.

A fully tuner stacked Mesmer MK2 with gauss guns has the potential to produce the following stats:
Damage %: 844.15%
Cycle Time: 3.52
Crit Chance: 25%
http://i.imgur.com/mlgqjOz.png

I come to a Seth MK2, no mods basic L10 extension player.
http://i.imgur.com/jtlvHn9.jpg

A fully tuner stacked Seth MK2 with GAUSS guns has the potential to produce the following stats:
Damage%: 842.64%
Cycle Time: 3.58
Crit Chance: 38%

So the comparison between the two is Damage increase on a Mesmer by 1.51 % and .06 sec cycle time.  But you gain 13% chance to crit on a Seth!

To put that into comparison it's MORE that a L6 extension at L10 http://i.imgur.com/PCQN7Di.png  So is it worth it?  The answer is yes.  the 13% more crit you gain versus .06 sec cycle and 1.51%, which is easily negated by ANY starting DPS spark http://i.imgur.com/XIoqccv.png 

Here's All three beside one another: http://i.imgur.com/8Z4a379.png

Pretty typical stuff across the board.  It makes we always wonder why the gropho got a Locking Time bonus.   That  should have been an optimal range bonus instead.  Gropho's have 1 Less leg slot then it's other counter parts.  It suffers drastically because of that one missing leg slot, meaning it has less tank or survivability.  So for an FC seeing a gropho on the front lines makes it a dead gropho.  The status quo is kite and shield fit meaning micromanaging the shield with your shots.  Since your shield survives solely on your recharge rate of accumulator it already gets gimped with 1 less slot.  It's best to stay in the back.  If AC really wished to bring some balance to the force the gropho should get some love.  The Base locking range of a gropho should be 575 Meters.  It should OUT range the Seth at 555 M and the Mesmer MK2 needs to go to 510 M(old gropho distance)[The reasoning behind this is to allow Mesmer MK2 pilots the ability to participate in gamma sieges].  While changing the locking time bonus to an optimal range bonus.

For comparison: http://i.imgur.com/DaCMzVz.png

Through the testing with the 13% Crit, there is no other reason a Mesmer MK2 should be fielded.  Is this the game you want to play AC?  Where only 1 robot is constantly used because it is the best at everything?

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Re: Robot Balancing

Good post!  Add more crit or damage bonus to blue!

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Re: Robot Balancing

What is really dumb is if you put a full head slot with Proto tunings and nexus and cocknadart gauss Seth mk2 vs some standard / auto cannon seths and they do triple the damage. With proper use of remote amps it really brings the lack of diminishing returns to full *** status.

Yet another product of the 'balance' patch

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4 Reply by Goffer (edited by Goffer 2015-10-27 07:34:21)

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Re: Robot Balancing

Ville did a good job pointing out one point what is wrong with HM since patch.
Other points are still missing as list is too long e.g why is Seth MK2 the new Ictus?

The sad thing is that several critical points were already mentioned in Forum month ago, partly even before patch went life.

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Re: Robot Balancing

Well done Ville.   I think all the players who play agree, that balance patch was the biggest unbalance piece of rubbish that contributed a great deal to people deciding to leave.  For the love of mike (or Michelle) bring back proper racial differences and don't just nerf the yellow.  All the previous patch needed was to slightly change the strength of ewar.  I love my seth, but I miss my ictus and a long range demobbing zenith.....

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Re: Robot Balancing

Thanks for taking the time to post this. Although it was not mentioned in the roadmap, this (and the other robot balance concerns) will be looked into soon. I know that it would be my job, but if someone feels like it, I'd really appreciate some links to the previously posted balance topics, to have them all in one place.

7 Reply by Ville (edited by Ville 2015-10-27 14:50:38)

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Re: Robot Balancing

The balancing is close. Lot of people would disagree but I think your close.  I'd suggest giving us 1 more head slot on Mesmer and 1 more leg slot on gropho.  Bring back demobbing zenith.  Raise the ictus neuts from 3% to 5% each level and add more weight to Medium armor plates.  So a plated heavy plus LWF goes 50kph.

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8 Reply by Goffer (edited by Goffer 2015-10-27 15:01:25)

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Re: Robot Balancing

Dev Zoom: I want to outline, that some of the balance ideas in the balance patch were very good. Especially the try to give love to some unwanted bots (eg. assault/indu mech), but the overall package introduced significant flaws, that should have been corrected long time ago.

I'm not sure, if a link list is that helpful as I assume I missed a lot inks, but to summarize at least some:

Prepatch: 
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … rect-nerf/
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … s-preview/

Postpatch:
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … aper-seth/
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … reen-bots/
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … ctus-buff/
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … bot-speed/
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … h-is-dumb/

Not linkeable now:
See my tickets regarding Zenith/Vaga (I consider at least part of it bug/unintended)

I personaly would summarize the worst points:
- Headslots >> Botbonus for several applications, this means HM with less Headslots are useless
- Lowered efficiency of Mining Mech/HM counterbalanced with increased yield of mining modules => benefit of afk mining with Sequer/Scarab
- Zenith > Vaga for all purpose both bots were intended to
- Ictus mk2 << Seth MK2 for neuting, Ictus without mk2 next to useless
- Rock-Paper-Scissors went to Red>>Blue>>Green

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Re: Robot Balancing

Thanks guys.

10 Reply by Rowboat (edited by Rowboat 2015-10-27 15:45:52)

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Re: Robot Balancing

If you give a mesmer another headslot you need to take away a leg slot.  6 headslots with 6 lowers this will make mesmers online.  It just has way too much survivability.  There has to be a tradeoff.   Imagine an ERP fit mesmer with 6 rep-tuners.  And, why take away the heavies speeed?  sparks are going away and we're going to be having to run everywhere.  Can u imagine running across Gamma where the reds run x2 faster than u?  I agree that the seth should not be equal to a mesmer, however making the mesmer stronger is the not solution nerfing and limiting the seth is.

*EDIT* you know what fook it i have magnatronics maxed go ahead make the mesmer OP i'll just be a blue pilot then.  BANDWAGON HERE I COME!

11 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2015-10-27 16:15:39)

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Re: Robot Balancing

Great post Ville!

Another issue that compounded to the balancing problem was the speed increases across the board, instead of increasing it by percentages they just added +36kph, meaning that HM got the best stats from the changes, as they were the slowest, HM speed nearly doubled.

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Re: Robot Balancing

Basically it would be so much better reverting the balance patch and asking what should be done rather than trying to glue together a glass to drink from.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."
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Re: Robot Balancing

Jita wrote:

Basically it would be so much better reverting the balance patch and asking what should be done rather than trying to glue together a glass to drink from.

Yes ofc. It's not only the pvp side, all HM races need to be viable for PVE too.

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14 Reply by Naismith (edited by Naismith 2015-10-28 13:24:03)

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Re: Robot Balancing

Biggest issues that plague the current balance are:

- Weapon Tunings give Damage, Cycle, Crit for no relevant drawback whatsoever - there's no reason not to use them.
- Robot bonuses are less important then Tunings and number of slots.
- ECM tuning still gives 35% strength for no relevant drawback.
- Ictus Robot Bonuses & Slot Numbers make it impossible to perform it's role of Energy Warfare.
- Armor plates give a large demob resistance which isn't compensated with a drawback (like weight increase) - there's no reason not to slap armor plates on.

TL;DR

Seth has the most head slots, seth is the most used robot because tunings trump everything. Addressing tunings and their stacking should go hand in hand with armor plate rework, because without tunings demob-immune 100kph heavies would be even worse to play with and against.

ALTERNATIVELY:

Revert the balance patch, address ECM tuning (35% strength increase, no drawback) and we will be in a much better place.

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Re: Robot Balancing

Can't disagree with any if that other than to reinforce the point that you can either fix 8 things or revert the balance patch and fix 2.

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Re: Robot Balancing

Jita wrote:

Can't disagree with any if that other than to reinforce the point that you can either fix 8 things or revert the balance patch and fix 2.

+1

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Re: Robot Balancing

+1

We need to see into the Balance!

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Re: Robot Balancing

Ville wrote:

The balancing is close. Lot of people would disagree but I think your close.  I'd suggest giving us 1 more head slot on Mesmer and 1 more leg slot on gropho.  Bring back demobbing zenith.  Raise the ictus neuts from 3% to 5% each level and add more weight to Medium armor plates.  So a plated heavy plus LWF goes 50kph.

Just make LWF and Plates not work together I actually think some bots should have weight limits.... IE Arbs with 3 plates and a frame demob immune and still fast just dumb.

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Re: Robot Balancing

Khader Khan wrote:
Ville wrote:

The balancing is close. Lot of people would disagree but I think your close.  I'd suggest giving us 1 more head slot on Mesmer and 1 more leg slot on gropho.  Bring back demobbing zenith.  Raise the ictus neuts from 3% to 5% each level and add more weight to Medium armor plates.  So a plated heavy plus LWF goes 50kph.

Just make LWF and Plates not work together I actually think some bots should have weight limits.... IE Arbs with 3 plates and a frame demob immune and still fast just dumb.

yep, or you could just not allow medium size modules on anything smaller than mech.

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Re: Robot Balancing

http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=kill&kill_id=51045

Another fine example of Seths online.  The team that lost had 3 vagabonds.  Annis death mail was on alpha.  There is NO *** way 3 vagabonds should have lost to Seths...

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Re: Robot Balancing

Ville wrote:

http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=kill&kill_id=51045

Another fine example of Seths online.  The team that lost had 3 vagabonds.  Annis death mail was on alpha.  There is NO *** way 3 vagabonds should have lost to Seths...

actually, i cannot remember losing to a seth out there.
as far as i can tell, there have been a castel mk2, a zenith and a vagabond chasing me back to alpha, just to slow me down, and a gropho was the first one to open fire on me while i was permajammed.

so, where did the seth's play a role in my death as noob vaga pilot?

cannot compute

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Re: Robot Balancing

The seth murdered everyone else, you got murdered by the skirmishers.

23 Reply by Factor Fett (edited by Factor Fett 2015-11-21 01:39:48)

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Re: Robot Balancing

Annihilator wrote:

actually, i cannot remember losing to a seth out there.
as far as i can tell, there have been a castel mk2, a zenith and a vagabond chasing me back to alpha, ...

Panic causes loss of memory, you don't remember targeting my seth at vougar mass 2?, and me shooting you before you jump to alpha?, but i go for the primary target first, MasterGunz.

MasterGunz was only like 100 meters behind you, you don't saw where MasterGunz was?, do you try to ecm me?, the panic block you?.

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Re: Robot Balancing

Honestly a lot of good things in this thread. Syndic said it well and villa produced the evidence, one tuner makes more difference than the last two levels of skill and plates don't have enough drawback. Personally I love medium plates and the ability to put them on smaller bots.

I don't like the idea of a weight limit but it should scale exponentially with the intended weight so that a little over the line will slow you down but go too far and you only got 10 kph.

Would also love the ability to calculate speed in mps and not kph

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Re: Robot Balancing

All the EWar tunings have irrelevant drawbacks (10% accumulator usage?) nobody cares about and there's no trade-off.

All the weapon tunings buff 3 things (damage, cycletime, crit) with like... no drawback whatsoever.

There's no reason not to spam them.