Re: Field rescue discussion

Naismith wrote:

I don't see how field rescue would even possibly work without breaking everything completely. Worst idea of the lot tbh.

When I first read field rescue I thought something on the topic of salvaging wrecks and I got excited for a bit, but I was disappointed.

Well isn't this rare.

+9000

While the idea of having this mechanic to encourage people to want to go out and PvP more often due to less risk and being able to get your bot back through increasing cost of material or NIC is of some interest.

It takes away heavily from the full loot full loss risk PvP that has always made this game's PvP unique, fun, and enjoyable, and various other words to describe it, people find enjoyment and emotion in feeling that they've actually destroyed or lost a bot and having to replace it with a new one or do something else, adding this mechanic would take away from the full destruction full loot risk PvP that many players in this game have come to know and love over the last few years. The way I see it, this mechanic would only work effectively for veterans who have craptons of NIC and assets stockpiled anyways in comparison to newer guys who lose their first few lights or assaults who have little to no NIC or material, in theory and reality, this would only if not, mostly positively effect veterans, and overall, would not do a whole lot to positively improve PvP.

Besides, in reality, whether people go out and PvP regardless of this, is in the mindset and I dont think this change would make a good long term or even mid term difference.

-1 to the field rescue mechanic, Full loot full Destroy PvP should not be tampered with, if anything, BRING BACK THE OMEGA ISLAND if you are gonna attempt that, make just make it so that if you die there in that tourney arena that your bot lands backup where you land up with your bloodspark, BUT FOR GOD SAKE dont tamper with the current PvP flow in this way, thank you, have a nice night. smile

Reading this signature fills you with determination.

2 (edited by Jita 2015-07-25 09:17:29)

Re: Field rescue discussion

Naismith wrote:

I don't see how field rescue would even possibly work without breaking everything completely. Worst idea of the lot tbh.

When I first read field rescue I thought something on the topic of salvaging wrecks and I got excited for a bit, but I was disappointed.

Fully agree.

Also the premise this feature is based upon is wrong. PvP in this game is not about stuff. It should be more about it than it is currently really but any active corp can have everything they need multiple times over for the amount of Pvp you will get. PvP is about people, skills and who is willing to alarm clock their forces. Cutting the risk of dying won't help increase Pvp at all IMO. The whole point of PvP is risk and without that you make it no fun.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

3 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2015-07-25 12:02:11)

Re: Field rescue discussion

Naismith wrote:

I don't see how field rescue would even possibly work without breaking everything completely. Worst idea of the lot tbh.

When I first read field rescue I thought something on the topic of salvaging wrecks and I got excited for a bit, but I was disappointed.

Most of the Ideas in the blog I like or With some working our of details could be interesting & fun.
But this one is such a massive fundamental change to the game that it carries HUGE risks that I just dont think are worth taking.


100% agree with Syndic

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Topic: Field rescue discussion

I don't think this idea should even be on the table as it goes against every fundamental aspect of the game.

I felt this idea is so terrible I needed to make a separate topic just to tell you how terrible it is.

No hard feelings.

It's just so terrible I'm thinking about using up my 7 days free time in WoW.

Re: Field rescue discussion

I'm aware that this idea is the most controversial one. Let's see what others think.

Re: Field rescue discussion

(merged relevant posts from the blog topic)

Re: Field rescue discussion

The point of PvP is risk.

The point of everything else is to fund PvP.

Remove the risk and you break everything.

For those that don't do PvP the point of PvE is still risk, that's what makes it fun. There are some who enjoy asset accumulation only but not many of those filthy capitalist pigs.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

8 (edited by Burial 2015-07-25 12:52:03)

Re: Field rescue discussion

If the repairs only take minerals, it's a waste of development time, you could just decrease the mineral requirements for bots and the aftermath would be similar: cheaper to get blown up over and over. If it's a NIC only thing, I support it, purely because I think it could boost the economy.

Honestly, like Jita said, change like this isn't going to make losers win, or winners spend more. If you want to make it cheaper to PVP, go over tech and bot tiers. Give more power to sub-T4 equipment and sub-MK2 bots.

My opinion is, the time is better spent balancing tech tiers and bots. Drop it, make only T1, T2, T3 tiers(along with the proto and + tiers) where T1 takes Alpha minerals, T2 adds Epriton and T3 adds Colixum and some of those new minerals, make the difference only 5% between the tiers and we're on a good start.

Re: Field rescue discussion

From an industrial side, implementing this "X lives on bot" thing in my opinion guarantees that bots won't be produced as much and the demand for them (which is already non-existent, I've been selling some Kains for ~7 months without success) will pretty much be gone.

I don't see it as "hardcore", like Jita mentioned the point of everything else in the game is to fund PVP.  If PVP doesn't need to be funded, everything else doesn't need to be done (nobody mines ore because it's a super fun activity) as much as before.

10 (edited by Burial 2015-07-25 13:15:40)

Re: Field rescue discussion

Naismith wrote:

From an industrial side, implementing this "X lives on bot" thing in my opinion guarantees that bots won't be produced as much and the demand for them (which is already non-existent, I've been selling some Kains for ~7 months without success) will pretty much be gone.

Yes, it would decrease the demand for industrialists, and everything else that wouldn't have to be re-used again like Cortexes, CT's and minerals, which in return would decrease the demand for everything the industrialists need, like kernels, fragments, better facility bonuses etc.

We need to think of NIC sinks, but that's too messy.

Re: Field rescue discussion

Well the irony of course is that pretty much the only players left here (or at least vocal) are the PvP-oriented ones, and those who have already ragequit over a lost bot are not here anymore smile

12 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2015-07-25 13:29:40)

Re: Field rescue discussion

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well the irony of course is that pretty much the only players left here (or at least vocal) are the PvP-oriented ones, and those who have already ragequit over a lost bot are not here anymore smile



Like no fun PVE was a big one.

& dumb patches they made ppl leave.

Oh & remember when entire corps left the game in some cases in the space of a few days / week due to some of these changes

Also lag?

Yeah & its not like there's 100 other reason either smile

Pick up a rock & throw it im sure you will hit an issue... or 10 tongue

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Field rescue discussion

well, just look at ED
player there seem to ragequit about exploding of their ships too, even though they get it replaced 100% with minimal insurance fee.

the problem there is that often they jump into the next bigger ship before covering for the insurance, and the traders can lose millions even in a type 6, just because the cargo is not insured. Bounties and Exploration Data has to be turned in at a station before you profit from it.

The issue here in perp is exactly the same.
The robot itself is the least factor of your loss.

Factors:

  • T1 / MK1 vs. T4 /Mk2
    -> since vets, and their pets have access to vast amounts of high-tech gear, going to PVP is suicide without the expensive gear.

  • Loot
    ->"Reward" for any activity is 50% and more in your cargo. The new Mission system shifts that a little bit, but hunting roaming npcs on beta still seems undesireable

  • Risk WALL
    -> orange NPCs, 100% protection on one side of the teleporter vs. 100% RISK on the other side.
    Losing your Robot and all its equip is not even considered in the concept of "Alpha"

  • Twitch based mechanics
    -> one of the arguments why perp was better then EVE.. and even if it was only "using detructible cover".
    completely wasted by LoS free modules like Demobs and Detectors, extreme durable plants and horrible HUD.

  • PvP flag mechanics
    -> Industrials only defense allowed are shields + running away. just because you couldn't think of ways to prevent aggro-flag exploits beeing used.

You have to make it FUN and Rewarding to go head on with someone else.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Field rescue discussion

How exactly might this work, obviously you would repair the bot, but I'd assume the modules would still drop as loot and they would need to be replaced? You would then use mins or nic to repair the bot ?

Re: Field rescue discussion

This change destroys the market, the risk in PVP and the whole process and reason to go out to mine and make stuff that it's player made and provide content, this would be a huge change in direction.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Field rescue discussion

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well the irony of course is that pretty much the only players left here (or at least vocal) are the PvP-oriented ones, and those who have already ragequit over a lost bot are not here anymore smile

People don't really rage quit over lost bots zoom. Quite a few have rage quit over industrial nerfs, a fair few more over unstable servers during fights and the most because the PvP and political landscape has remained the same since the three island meta ended and it begame a game about who is on top vs everyone else.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Field rescue discussion

Naismith wrote:

From an industrial side, implementing this "X lives on bot" thing in my opinion guarantees that bots won't be produced as much and the demand for them (which is already non-existent, I've been selling some Kains for ~7 months without success) will pretty much be gone.

I don't understand, if the current demand is zero, how will this make any negative impact on the existing situation ?

Re: Field rescue discussion

Celebro wrote:

This change destroys the market, the risk in PVP and the whole process and reason to go out to mine and make stuff that it's player made and provide content, this would be a huge change in direction.

Once again as I said to Syndic, if the market is dead now, how can this have any sort of negative impact ?

19 (edited by Celebro 2015-07-25 14:40:28)

Re: Field rescue discussion

Blocker wrote:
Celebro wrote:

This change destroys the market, the risk in PVP and the whole process and reason to go out to mine and make stuff that it's player made and provide content, this would be a huge change in direction.

Once again as I said to Syndic, if the market is dead now, how can this have any sort of negative impact ?

The market is dead because there are few players and the value of NIC has kept falling. There is no reason to keep hold of NIC if you are building everything yourself.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Field rescue discussion

Zoom, is this something that could be implemented as a trial maybe ? or is the underlying changes too complex for that ?

21 (edited by DEV Zoom 2015-07-25 14:51:28)

Re: Field rescue discussion

Blocker wrote:

Zoom, is this something that could be implemented as a trial maybe ? or is the underlying changes too complex for that ?

Well maybe it could work as a PvE-only feature, meaning only if you are destroyed by an NPC.

edit: or simply limited to alpha islands.

This would probably be closer to the lore as well. The Syndicate only reimburses losses made by the pesky aliens, not by enraged humans smile

Re: Field rescue discussion

DEV Zoom wrote:
Blocker wrote:

Zoom, is this something that could be implemented as a trial maybe ? or is the underlying changes too complex for that ?

Well maybe it could work as a PvE-only feature, meaning only if you are destroyed by an NPC.

edit: or simply limited to alpha islands.

This would probably be closer to the lore as well. The Syndicate only reimburses losses made by the pesky aliens, not by enraged humans smile

It may work well in PVE. Maybe that would be an acceptable compromise for you guy's ? Jita, Syndic your thoughts?

23 (edited by Blocker 2015-07-25 15:53:05)

Re: Field rescue discussion

Celebro wrote:
Blocker wrote:
Celebro wrote:

This change destroys the market, the risk in PVP and the whole process and reason to go out to mine and make stuff that it's player made and provide content, this would be a huge change in direction.

Once again as I said to Syndic, if the market is dead now, how can this have any sort of negative impact ?

The market is dead because there are few players and the value of NIC has kept falling. There is no reason to keep hold of NIC if you are building everything yourself.

That's true, but you could also say we build everything ourselves BECAUSE the market is dead. Just depends on which way you want to look at it. From my point of view it's a population problem. I mean, most of the corps playing are vet corps, and vet corps usually have good stockpiles anyway, plus they have built these stockpiles for themselves over the years.

I don't know that we can just assume that this would kill the market because the idea may seem, at first, unpalatable. I mean Jita wants to apply station unlocking as a trial basis. why not carry that same perspective to other suggestions put forward ? Rather than just say "fail", because we may not like it ourselves.

[edit] Also Celebro you didn't actually answer my question, if the market is dead or non-existent how can this change, or any change for that matter, have a negative impact ?

24 (edited by logicalNegation 2015-07-25 16:29:11)

Re: Field rescue discussion

-1 for field rescue

The less that is lost in death, is less they must recover through the market or through mining/production.

Yes there are other issues affecting the markets health overall, but the more we take away from it the less of a real player-driven market it becomes.

25 (edited by Blocker 2015-07-25 16:43:10)

Re: Field rescue discussion

DEV Zoom wrote:
Blocker wrote:

Zoom, is this something that could be implemented as a trial maybe ? or is the underlying changes too complex for that ?

Well maybe it could work as a PvE-only feature, meaning only if you are destroyed by an NPC.

edit: or simply limited to alpha islands.

This would probably be closer to the lore as well. The Syndicate only reimburses losses made by the pesky aliens, not by enraged humans smile

But HOW might this work, I still am unsure what will happen, I understand that the bot would not be destroyed, but would the modules drop as loot ? All my comments above are based on the assumption that modules will still be destroyed or dropped, therefore the market will still need to exist to replace modules for those that don't want to make them, and people will still get loot drops as they do now.

Or am I completely misunderstanding how this is supposed to work ?