Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Annihilator wrote:

your corpmates already explain in their posts from time to time, why things have to change.

I am not saying things should not change.  I was just pointing out that if you think NSE is broke cause someone sold some ICE, you are delusional.

I can add my 2 cents like everyone else:
I am in favor of making ppl play this game, not just logging in and looking at cat pixs or going to sleep!  I don't like botting and I don't like afk miners.  I think reds should roam alpha 2s, beta and gamma and alpha 1s should lose the ability to afk mine or bot.  Alpha 1s can not become the new no risk vs all reward zones, so unless something is done (limit mineral field sizes, remove liquids, etc), the problems we currently have will just shift to the A1 islands.

We have too many of the same issues in different topic, saying the same things over and over again.
Risk-v-Reward is what is not balanced.  Gamma and Beta is a ghost town, resources are not being consumed (aka bots getting destroyed), and everyone is just semi playing hording for the future.  That gets boring and folks leave the game or only log in for a few minutes during the weekend to cause drama and troll.

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Annihilator wrote:
Illiathos wrote:

Then give me those 100 reasons. You realise you havent given me a single concrete argument?

sorry, i am not one of those who can explain e=mc² to backyard kids, nor do i have any reason to do so...

If you think that this discussion is on the level of the principles of general relativity, then you are sorely mistaken. And wtf does this equation even have in context to the whole discussion? You are full of bullshit, you havent given me a single argument AGAIN and you're just making things up to stir the flaming war.

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Yea, if we don't start dealing the the bots, the game will fail.

Instead of 25 in GC, it would be 23.

roll

I am Perpetuum.

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Jasdemi wrote:

Red NCPs on alpha2 were removed as a band aid fix due to rampant griefing. As AI stuff is now fixed, I hope they're coming back asap. Made alpha2 life much more interesting.

9) Sure, but you've been around for a long time. When NSE first started, we went through blood and tears to get a seth, now we can produce gamma terminals with ease.

Yet your corp still had to sell me 40 ICE few days ago, to acquire some NIC. I'm not judging, but get off your high horse, son.

I sold 40 ice (23 to you btw) because I do it every thime there is a sale...I like to have a big balance as a corp leader.  Dont be a troll....

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Ok, I might be the only person who does this but sometimes I do like to do HW, watch TV, read a book, or just sit afk cause *** you that's why. 
This general description is what is known in the gaming community, as I understand it, a 'casual gamer'. 
Though I would like to emphasize my playstyle should limit my ability to acquire wealth, and participate in some activities.  (Ex: afk pvp... definitely not a thing.)  I have done all-day Scarab liquid mining, but I can easily eclipse that output with <1hr with a riveler, but at a semi-afk state.
So it is clear there is a spectrum of activities that can be done to some degree of effectiveness based on the player's participatory rigor.  The question is how can we create equitable rewards based on the degree of this rigor?  Instead of: how can we eliminate content for our already small playerbase based on their playstyle preferences?

Botting devalues real-players participation on any level.  It introduces too much volume to the market, prices drop, and the activity becomes meaningless for real players.  Bot detection would be the best avenue, instead of nerfing activities that are 'bottable'. (citing the number of people that have mentioned this earlier).
However an alternative or additional measure against botting is like what was a major component of random assignments: the randomness!  Now there is no guarantee on where you go, what you do, etc.  I would argue this does not terribly decrease real-player's output from assignments now, vs earlier.  So we have new and more content, arguably more entertaining than the monotony of the prior system, and it eliminates botting potential; huzzah mission success (good job devs)!

Also the Risk:Reward ratio.  When it comes to alpha the risk is zero, so what is any reward/0?  Well its invalid math, but what if we say risk approaches 0, then reward approaches infinity.  Clearly some risk should be introduced.
However I must emphasize, real players autopilot, real players haul between market hubs, real players mine alone without pvp/pve support, new players live here at least for a while, mostly alone.  So how can we introduce risk without completely making the game unplayable if a new player undocks at the wrong time, or walked too far from terminal wanting to explore (or do a mission, or mine, etc.)

First, as many noted, reds on alpha2 only, allowing alpha1 to still be safe from pve aggro, and decreasing resource amounts on alpha1's.  But what types of reds, and what spawn mechanics on alpha2?  Drones? Observers? L5's?  I think most would agree, given that alpha is the only teleport pipeline between factions, having high level red gangs makes travel, even in reasonable company, very risky, too risky for the rewards.

My proposal is introduce red arkhe drone-types and/or L0's sparsely and with fixed 'homes' (like mission spawn mechanics now) with a generous but not infinite lasso radius (the distance they may chase their aggro'er from home coordinates).  They can have some tricky ecm or enwar, and some dps (no demob: again to emphasize a player paying attention should survive more than a player not doing so).  But a real player should be able to fit a gun and a tank on their miner (they have slots for it), go out, do their mining mission, pop drones as they aggro along the way (not unlike hi-sec eve rats).  This way new players, and indy players, at least are introduced to fitting tanks, paying some attention so that they aren't slowly shot down, but not insta-popped because a red gang popped up on their radar while they were tabbed out. 

This would mean you couldn't be completely afk, or you would sacrifice mining output or speed to fit a more robust tank.  Which is reasonable, I think.  But should alpha2's be populated with Red observers? I think not.

This is my opinion, and while from a personal perspective I would posit that at least some players also don't want to have a game monopolize their time, but still want to participate in some way and make meaningful progress in the game.

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

I can't be asked to go mining after an hour I want to slit my *** wrists.

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Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

logicalNegation wrote:

Ok, I might be the only person who does this but sometimes I do like to do HW, watch TV, read a book, or just sit afk cause *** you that's why. 
This general description is what is known in the gaming community, as I understand it, a 'casual gamer'. 
Though I would like to emphasize my playstyle should limit my ability to acquire wealth, and participate in some activities.  (Ex: afk pvp... definitely not a thing.)  I have done all-day Scarab liquid mining, but I can easily eclipse that output with <1hr with a riveler, but at a semi-afk state.
So it is clear there is a spectrum of activities that can be done to some degree of effectiveness based on the player's participatory rigor.  The question is how can we create equitable rewards based on the degree of this rigor?  Instead of: how can we eliminate content for our already small playerbase based on their playstyle preferences?

Botting devalues real-players participation on any level.  It introduces too much volume to the market, prices drop, and the activity becomes meaningless for real players.  Bot detection would be the best avenue, instead of nerfing activities that are 'bottable'. (citing the number of people that have mentioned this earlier).
However an alternative or additional measure against botting is like what was a major component of random assignments: the randomness!  Now there is no guarantee on where you go, what you do, etc.  I would argue this does not terribly decrease real-player's output from assignments now, vs earlier.  So we have new and more content, arguably more entertaining than the monotony of the prior system, and it eliminates botting potential; huzzah mission success (good job devs)!

Also the Risk:Reward ratio.  When it comes to alpha the risk is zero, so what is any reward/0?  Well its invalid math, but what if we say risk approaches 0, then reward approaches infinity.  Clearly some risk should be introduced.
However I must emphasize, real players autopilot, real players haul between market hubs, real players mine alone without pvp/pve support, new players live here at least for a while, mostly alone.  So how can we introduce risk without completely making the game unplayable if a new player undocks at the wrong time, or walked too far from terminal wanting to explore (or do a mission, or mine, etc.)

First, as many noted, reds on alpha2 only, allowing alpha1 to still be safe from pve aggro, and decreasing resource amounts on alpha1's.  But what types of reds, and what spawn mechanics on alpha2?  Drones? Observers? L5's?  I think most would agree, given that alpha is the only teleport pipeline between factions, having high level red gangs makes travel, even in reasonable company, very risky, too risky for the rewards.

My proposal is introduce red arkhe drone-types and/or L0's sparsely and with fixed 'homes' (like mission spawn mechanics now) with a generous but not infinite lasso radius (the distance they may chase their aggro'er from home coordinates).  They can have some tricky ecm or enwar, and some dps (no demob: again to emphasize a player paying attention should survive more than a player not doing so).  But a real player should be able to fit a gun and a tank on their miner (they have slots for it), go out, do their mining mission, pop drones as they aggro along the way (not unlike hi-sec eve rats).  This way new players, and indy players, at least are introduced to fitting tanks, paying some attention so that they aren't slowly shot down, but not insta-popped because a red gang popped up on their radar while they were tabbed out. 

This would mean you couldn't be completely afk, or you would sacrifice mining output or speed to fit a more robust tank.  Which is reasonable, I think.  But should alpha2's be populated with Red observers? I think not.

This is my opinion, and while from a personal perspective I would posit that at least some players also don't want to have a game monopolize their time, but still want to participate in some way and make meaningful progress in the game.

+1

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

SunnyJester wrote:
Jasdemi wrote:

Red NCPs on alpha2 were removed as a band aid fix due to rampant griefing. As AI stuff is now fixed, I hope they're coming back asap. Made alpha2 life much more interesting.

9) Sure, but you've been around for a long time. When NSE first started, we went through blood and tears to get a seth, now we can produce gamma terminals with ease.

Yet your corp still had to sell me 40 ICE few days ago, to acquire some NIC. I'm not judging, but get off your high horse, son.

I sold 40 ice (23 to you btw) because I do it every thime there is a sale...I like to have a big balance as a corp leader.  Dont be a troll....

http://i.imgur.com/7nEW3re.jpg

34 (edited by Burial 2015-06-24 11:23:50)

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

SunnyJester wrote:

I sold 40 ice (23 to you btw) ...

Never go full ***, dude..

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

badass bots like 24/7

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

logicalNegation wrote:

My proposal is introduce red arkhe drone-types and/or L0's sparsely and with fixed 'homes' (like mission spawn mechanics now) with a generous but not infinite lasso radius (the distance they may chase their aggro'er from home coordinates).  They can have some tricky ecm or enwar, and some dps (no demob: again to emphasize a player paying attention should survive more than a player not doing so).  But a real player should be able to fit a gun and a tank on their miner (they have slots for it), go out, do their mining mission, pop drones as they aggro along the way (not unlike hi-sec eve rats).  This way new players, and indy players, at least are introduced to fitting tanks, paying some attention so that they aren't slowly shot down, but not insta-popped because a red gang popped up on their radar while they were tabbed out. 

This would mean you couldn't be completely afk, or you would sacrifice mining output or speed to fit a more robust tank.  Which is reasonable, I think.  But should alpha2's be populated with Red observers? I think not.

This is my opinion, and while from a personal perspective I would posit that at least some players also don't want to have a game monopolize their time, but still want to participate in some way and make meaningful progress in the game.

-1
This equates to red NPCs to new players only which is the opposite of what we need! A vet player can easily shield tank a riv mk2 and afk mine if being attacked by low level reds.
How about very slow moving HMs.  This way folks really playing the game can run away (even in a riv), but afkers and botters will have difficulties.

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Just have red indy bots come along and ecm and neut the crap outa people. Have them stay on target until target either moves away or someone else comes along and kills them.

1. There is no butthurt about losing bot
2. Afk'ers and botters can get no resources cause they have no accumulator to run mining arms.

This of course wont work for people using bots to farm static spawns, but hey, static spawns are being removed right ?

Simples..

Next problem ?

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Have player spark's acquire an "STD" for afk mining.  Bots piloted by infected by this disease have *** accumulator for x amount of time until the player either cools off or spends real $$ to remove.

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

I like blockers idea, sorry to say Altera.
I don't think its too bad to say if you want to afk, fit a crazy tank.  This requires lots of skill and reduces mining output.  (I'm talking all head slots shield hardeners for example).
Or if that isn't acceptable, just make the Red npc's glass cannons, hi dps, low tank.  This way an active/semi-afk player can pop them with their spare turret slot, or risk getting their tank broken over some time.
But I want to avoid getting new players insta-popped, with no method of recourse (H-mechs would be too big to take on, and they might not be able to escape if they are in a slow indy bot.)

It's clear there is a balance to be struck here.  Perhaps the devs have some ideas...

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

ECM won't work. You would just set up honey pots on an island and all the rats would focus on that which would never die. If you don't want to die to rats then don't be afk. It worked fine for years, it will be fine now.

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Illiathos wrote:
logicalNegation wrote:

Ok, I might be the only person who does this but sometimes I do like to do HW, watch TV, read a book, or just sit afk cause *** you that's why. 
This general description is what is known in the gaming community, as I understand it, a 'casual gamer'. 
Though I would like to emphasize my playstyle should limit my ability to acquire wealth, and participate in some activities.  (Ex: afk pvp... definitely not a thing.)  I have done all-day Scarab liquid mining, but I can easily eclipse that output with <1hr with a riveler, but at a semi-afk state.
So it is clear there is a spectrum of activities that can be done to some degree of effectiveness based on the player's participatory rigor.  The question is how can we create equitable rewards based on the degree of this rigor?  Instead of: how can we eliminate content for our already small playerbase based on their playstyle preferences?

Botting devalues real-players participation on any level.  It introduces too much volume to the market, prices drop, and the activity becomes meaningless for real players.  Bot detection would be the best avenue, instead of nerfing activities that are 'bottable'. (citing the number of people that have mentioned this earlier).
However an alternative or additional measure against botting is like what was a major component of random assignments: the randomness!  Now there is no guarantee on where you go, what you do, etc.  I would argue this does not terribly decrease real-player's output from assignments now, vs earlier.  So we have new and more content, arguably more entertaining than the monotony of the prior system, and it eliminates botting potential; huzzah mission success (good job devs)!

Also the Risk:Reward ratio.  When it comes to alpha the risk is zero, so what is any reward/0?  Well its invalid math, but what if we say risk approaches 0, then reward approaches infinity.  Clearly some risk should be introduced.
However I must emphasize, real players autopilot, real players haul between market hubs, real players mine alone without pvp/pve support, new players live here at least for a while, mostly alone.  So how can we introduce risk without completely making the game unplayable if a new player undocks at the wrong time, or walked too far from terminal wanting to explore (or do a mission, or mine, etc.)

First, as many noted, reds on alpha2 only, allowing alpha1 to still be safe from pve aggro, and decreasing resource amounts on alpha1's.  But what types of reds, and what spawn mechanics on alpha2?  Drones? Observers? L5's?  I think most would agree, given that alpha is the only teleport pipeline between factions, having high level red gangs makes travel, even in reasonable company, very risky, too risky for the rewards.

My proposal is introduce red arkhe drone-types and/or L0's sparsely and with fixed 'homes' (like mission spawn mechanics now) with a generous but not infinite lasso radius (the distance they may chase their aggro'er from home coordinates).  They can have some tricky ecm or enwar, and some dps (no demob: again to emphasize a player paying attention should survive more than a player not doing so).  But a real player should be able to fit a gun and a tank on their miner (they have slots for it), go out, do their mining mission, pop drones as they aggro along the way (not unlike hi-sec eve rats).  This way new players, and indy players, at least are introduced to fitting tanks, paying some attention so that they aren't slowly shot down, but not insta-popped because a red gang popped up on their radar while they were tabbed out. 

This would mean you couldn't be completely afk, or you would sacrifice mining output or speed to fit a more robust tank.  Which is reasonable, I think.  But should alpha2's be populated with Red observers? I think not.

This is my opinion, and while from a personal perspective I would posit that at least some players also don't want to have a game monopolize their time, but still want to participate in some way and make meaningful progress in the game.

+1

Dear F1ck...

Add Red roaming red spawns, be done.

***.

I am Perpetuum.

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

you know whats going to be really ***, is when they add red roaming spawns in and people are SOOO used to afk auto pilot to the terminal.  You won't be able to do that anymore and remember... you people think this is a good idea.  It will literally make Autopilot function obsolete.  Because you will have to always be keeping an eye out.

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Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

So ask yourself this question:  What would you rather see?

AFK scarabs mining and functioning autopilot OR Red roaming mobs and NO use of the auto pilot.

Zoom, people do not add red roaming spawns on Alpha 2.  This was terrible back in the day and the general populous will hate it.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Ville wrote:

So ask yourself this question:  What would you rather see?

AFK scarabs mining and functioning autopilot OR Red roaming mobs and NO use of the auto pilot.

Zoom, people do not add red roaming spawns on Alpha 2.  This was terrible back in the day and the general populous will hate it.

+1

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Ville wrote:

So ask yourself this question:  What would you rather see?

AFK scarabs mining and functioning autopilot OR Red roaming mobs and NO use of the auto pilot.

Zoom, people do not add red roaming spawns on Alpha 2.  This was terrible back in the day and the general populous will hate it.

answer:
i want to see active players beeing rewarded* with for what they do 500 times more then having the reward exponentially scale with the number of accounts you can log in at the same time.
One major factor in that is, manually input.

Just look at how well disabling autopilot and autofollow reduced the number of PvP encounters of pure multiboxers.
A slight change in aggro behaviour of the NPCs made multiboxing farming the highest rank NPCs a bit more tricky.

neither of those changes made it IMPOSSIBLE, nor made it vanish these ways to play.

and TBH, i dislike the Autopilot how it is, and how it was forced onto every aproach feature in that unoptimized state. My robot cannot even walk a straight line towards a target without manual input anymore.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Annihilator wrote:
Ville wrote:

So ask yourself this question:  What would you rather see?

AFK scarabs mining and functioning autopilot OR Red roaming mobs and NO use of the auto pilot.

Zoom, people do not add red roaming spawns on Alpha 2.  This was terrible back in the day and the general populous will hate it.

answer:
i want to see active players beeing rewarded* with for what they do 500 times more then having the reward exponentially scale with the number of accounts you can log in at the same time.
One major factor in that is, manually input.

Just look at how well disabling autopilot and autofollow reduced the number of PvP encounters of pure multiboxers.
A slight change in aggro behaviour of the NPCs made multiboxing farming the highest rank NPCs a bit more tricky.

neither of those changes made it IMPOSSIBLE, nor made it vanish these ways to play.

and TBH, i dislike the Autopilot how it is, and how it was forced onto every aproach feature in that unoptimized state. My robot cannot even walk a straight line towards a target without manual input anymore.

Yeah well they took options away from pvp with the follow bot change.  The slightly outnumbered could always compensate with an extra follow bot or two.  Also it drastically cut the range of engagements down ~1K battles are now 300 M brawl fests, partly due to terrible balancing change.  But still.  Less options in pvp +1 the way you looking at this?

And as far as the npc change, I don't care if the mobs all turn to red, but the sea of whining about afk players from people who don't even log into the game??  I can't tell you how many butthurt rage quits I seen from haulers who got picked off on the way to tellesis from the one roaming spawn over the kausdam teleport.  I don't want to see that return because I truly think people have forgotten how annoying, waiting 3 to 5 minutes for mobs to pat was and twiddling your thumbs contemplating how much of your life is wasted walking in this game.  Who cares about afk hauler miners??  Really you can't stay online longer than 24 hours AND you can't fill a hauler in 24 hours.  Some of the casual players might not want to spend their entire online time mining liquids when they could buffer there stock over night.  You guys are making a huge deal out of nothing.  Seriously you are.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Ville wrote:

you know whats going to be really ***, is when they add red roaming spawns in and people are SOOO used to afk auto pilot to the terminal.  You won't be able to do that anymore and remember... you people think this is a good idea.  It will literally make Autopilot function obsolete.  Because you will have to always be keeping an eye out.

Wait so I have to be tabbed in to autopilot around.  The shame and horror!!

Wait I need to be tabbed in to mine?  The shame and horror!!

I am Perpetuum.

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Some people have more than one account, and usually more accounts than monitors.

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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Which is awesome!  You go girl.  Work those monitors.  Pay those bills.

This is to deal with a much larger problem, that frankly our own side seems to think is a problem.

Bots.  PHM, CIR, the POE have, and continue to tout this is a problem.  This is the simplest fix. 

This can be done simply and effective, within certain goals. 

I will gladly take the extra 10 min simply waiting for a red spawn to pass for the betterment of the game.

Or I can get all social on there *** and ask for help killing them.  Friends are a wonderful thing!

Lets please continue this heated discussion!

I am Perpetuum.

Re: The whole balancing around afking, mutiboxing and botting

Honestly I came back to more actively playing beacuse of AUTOPILOT change, sad but true.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD