Topic: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

To flag in beta you have to demonstrate your willingness to PvP.

For example you do something like:
- Shoot someone
- Shoot someone's TP
- Shoot a probe

Why be allowed to jump out of a PvP zone when you've clearly demonstrated your hostile intent?  Even back when Cir/77 owned the world I didn't understand why we're allowed to jump when flagged.

I suspect it wasn't always this way? Maybe it was.  Can someone give me some history and maybe we have a real discussion about it? I don't understand why it works that way.

-K

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

At the least I would think not allow a jump to Alpha. Other games I've played if you agro in a PvP zone you have to wait out that flag before entering a non PvP zone. Some allowed it but the NPC's will attack if you are still flagged, even this I would be ok with. Either way, when you commit with that first shot you should not be able to go and haul *** into alpha, or if you can your PvP flag should reset with every shot fired on you because you are still technically in battle!

/ENDRANT

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

In the past you couldnt jump to islands with flag.

Now you can that is the change.

I like it!

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

there is no point in not allowing to jump since the PvP flag carrys over.
in former times it wasn't allowed to jump flagged, because the server couldn't remember your flag status.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

I have to correct you, because you demonstrate your willingness to PvP by simply going to beta. The flag on beta is just a mechanic to fix some loopholes, but you are exposed to potential PvP whether you flag or not.

Teleporting with a PvP flag was a popular player request a good while ago, with the proposition that fights could "bleed" into alphas.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Then it seems like a more consistent step would be to force a PvP flag after you come back from beta whether you engaged in PvP or not.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Kayin Prime wrote:

Then it seems like a more consistent step would be to force a PvP flag after you come back from beta whether you engaged in PvP or not.

That's an interesting idea, but would it matter?

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

@DEV Zoom : What about those fights that bleed over, if half can deflag in time they can await to reflag when getting closer etc with nothing the others in the opposing fleet can do. Making it so that only one side can refresh the flag can cause a one sided fight when exploited that way, I suggest that giving or receiving damage from or to a player should refresh both players flags to cause a commitment to a fight and avoid exploitation of one way flag timers.

9 (edited by Gotnutzz 2015-01-05 01:37:24)

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

I think you should be re-flagged if you are shot at

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Amano: If the victim fires back then his flag refreshes, but if he only takes damage without shooting back then the assumption is that he wants to escape.

We don't want to take away the option to retreat from a fight if you don't want to fight anymore. It's not even that easy to do so right now either, unless you're much faster than your attackers.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

That's another imbalance actually.

You virtually cannot escape when you're in the middle of the island, but at the teleport to alpha you virtually cannot die.

This is why PvP takes place inside the island and 'gate games' take place on the gates.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

@Zoom we are just trying to figure out a way to stop the dumb gate games that people are playing rather than getting away from a gate and actually pvp'ing.....

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Well it may not be the best gameplay mechanic, but I think it's a good thing that we have a transitional grey area between "full safety" and "no escape death".

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

So my thoughts are, they if they are not allowed to jump to Alpha, they can still jump to a beta gate or go to a beta station to get away, so how can you say they can not retreat?????  Nobody likes the stupid gate camps, so lets get rid of them.....

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

And make the Syndicate protection value half.......

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

And auto flag bots when they jump to Beta.....

17 (edited by Rasnath 2015-01-05 02:15:43)

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

The idea of retreat is decent, but its being ABUSED by gate camping. By raising movement speed of the bots, a lot of people can run a click away from tp and get back to it (undemobbable arbalests, anyone?). It would be a lot less worse to lose an occasional bot for haulers than to lose pvp alltogether. But you should know that by keeping this mechanic, there is practically no more decent pvp. Now because jita and all vets have all pve mats in the game they'd ever want (make a T5 ffs!), the only thing left to do is pvp. And by allowing this to continue, you're going to kill pvp in the game. Now a game where you've accomplished pve and dont have pvp, you're gonna lose customers. And i freaking spent 300+ euros on this game. But that's gonna stop if i get bored because of broken mechanics.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Well then increase to flag timer to 10-15 minutes if your to lazy to even try out any other changes.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

this actually only matters because there are only a handfull of islands. The game is meant to have hundres of them, with only those few alpha islands to begin with.

so, nothing worth to break a bone over it

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well it may not be the best gameplay mechanic, but I think it's a good thing that we have a transitional grey area between "full safety" and "no escape death".

There is no transitional grey area between full safety and certain death when you haven't fired a shot at the gate.   When you're being pursued or even shot at and you jump to Alpha you're immediately safe.

There is no risk in teleporting to beta. You're really not committing to entering a PvP zone until you get about 3000 meters off that teleporter.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

This is the worst idea ever!  We need these buffer zones were players can attack and run away.  Why should we ever have a game where people can freely pvp and then run away.  Infact let's stop permanent death!  Take people to 1 hp.  Then the opposing player gets a medal!  GG.  The game would be so much better.

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Kayin Prime wrote:

To flag in beta you have to demonstrate your willingness to PvP.

For example you do something like:
- Shoot someone
- Shoot someone's TP
- Shoot a probe

Why be allowed to jump out of a PvP zone when you've clearly demonstrated your hostile intent?  Even back when Cir/77 owned the world I didn't understand why we're allowed to jump when flagged.

I suspect it wasn't always this way? Maybe it was.  Can someone give me some history and maybe we have a real discussion about it? I don't understand why it works that way.

-K

I don't understand what the problem is ? If you are flagged and jump to alpha the flag carries with you, if fact the flag time is extended. It's up to you to get organised in time to catch the offender, either on beta or alpha while their flag still exists. If the intruder can get on beta, achieve their objective and flag up in the process, then get back to alpha even while still flagged and get away, then more power to them.

By asking for mechanic changes ,you need to be careful you don't remove guerilla hit and run tactics or any tactics that may be applied by smaller corps like ours, if you remove that then you may be removing reasons  to pvp ?
 
Just seems to me like your asking for mechanics that allow you more time to get your superior numbers organised.  Be careful what you wish for, it may bite you on the backside in 6 months.

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Ninja ops I understand Blocker, coming from other games where we did the same. However when caught regardless of section, if we were agressable on a safe zone and we were caught, our flag stayed open as long as we were caught.

Should you be able to outrun the enemy in this game, cool more power to you, but if they rightfully catch you in a chase and poof you get away because voila the flag went down even though you were caught and tackled, that's just game mechanics saying a big "Screw You" to anyone who rightfully should be able to counter the ninja that failed at being unseen or actually getting away with out a mechanic exploitation in use.

This just teaches players to look for mechanics to exploit (and yes I mean exploit not take advantage of, as this is a raw exploitation of a direct one way mechanic) to their advantage in my opinion, and does nothing but make it less of a challenge to play because hey, I can ninja in, run to alpha flagged, get caught on the other side after a small chase and they cant get the DPS bot to the fast tackle soon enough to kill me and I can just laugh in their face for their failed victory due to a stupid mechanic exploitation.

This is the ONLY game I have seen a PvP flag in that is refreshed in a single direction, and I have a rather large collection of played and tested games under my belt. But hey other games must just be doing it wrong while raking in loads of cash right?

/ENDRANT

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Blocker:

- You ninja something on beta and get out without flagging, good for you.
- You ninja something, get caught, win / run away successfully,  good for you.

What DOES happen that needs to be fixed:

- You ninja something, get caught, fight, realize you're going to die, slow boat it to the teleport in your quad plate demob-immune heavy,  jump through, and tank all damage until your flag's up.   Now you're 100% safe despite the fleet that's literally on top of you while simultaneously that same entire fleet is at a major disadvantage because we're ALL flagged (vulnerable to attack), unable to jump back to beta, and worse of all we can't control any of the ground we're standing on. 

Your fleet could be sitting there with all the time and freedom to re-position,  change ammo,  hell - even jump in more bots by the time our stability goes away.

That's the fleet scenario. 

This change would actually ADD more ninja opportunity. Consider the hauler scenario:

The time between syndicate protection wearing off vs my stability is the only window you have to ganking my scarab coming off Beta. That's it. That's your window to gank and ruin my day.  Not enough in my opinion.  I don't have to give a *** what's on the other side of Alpha. If haulers had a pvp flag set after jumping through by default... just imagine..  I can think of new corp ops, new bot configurations. New purposes to old bots long forgotten.. Newbies pvp'ing with fairly high risk/reward.  Etc.

-K

$0.02

Re: Jumping to Alpha when Flagged - Serious discussion

Kayin Prime wrote:

Blocker:

What DOES happen that needs to be fixed:

- You ninja something, get caught, fight, realize you're going to die, slow boat it to the teleport in your quad plate demob-immune heavy,  jump through, and tank all damage until your flag's up.   Now you're 100% safe despite the fleet that's literally on top of you while simultaneously that same entire fleet is at a major disadvantage because we're ALL flagged (vulnerable to attack), unable to jump back to beta, and worse of all we can't control any of the ground we're standing on. 

Your fleet could be sitting there with all the time and freedom to re-position,  change ammo,  hell - even jump in more bots by the time our stability goes away.

That's the fleet scenario. 

-K

$0.02

Ok in this situation fair enuff, I can see how that would be frustrating, but it's a situation that is applied equally to everyone, and that's not saying it don't need changing.  But to the best of my knowledge it has always been this way and no-one has complained before, most just say "ohh you lucky bugger, I'll get you next time" and move on.

Why can't you jump back to beta if flagged ? If the flag mechanics prevent this then that is silly and needs changing. I ask because as far as I can remember I have never had to jump from alpha to beta flagged. I usually die on either alpha or beta before jumping. If you can jump flagged from beta to alpha, you should be able to jump flagged from alpha to beta.