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Topic: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

just as a question, before i waste all my points.
I just started a few days ago and spend all my points into Industrial stuff, better Refining, more slots for Production...that kind of stuff.
Then i noticed, that the market is usually almost empty...is it even worth it to produce stuff on mass?
Im talking about trading on the first island (New Virginia for me) btw, i thought that maybe some new players like me would buy weapons and ammunition...dont know if i were wrong with that guess.
So, what do the veterans say?
Is Industrial worh it, or should i stick with slaughtering bots?

Also: what about trading bigger masses of stuff from one island to another?

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Not worth it.  And you wasted your EP getting into production day one.

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

So basically i can delete my char and start a new one? sad

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

I'd say he is trolling you. Or doesn't want competition.

5 Reply by LazerusKI (edited by LazerusKI 2014-10-23 20:43:39)

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

That would be mean -.-
I just put some of my EM guns into the market, some ammo too.
If it does not sell, atleast i can support a friend with ammo and weapons then

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

LazerusKI wrote:

So basically i can delete my char and start a new one? sad

if deleting wouldn't have such a high penalty on it...
but it depends on what you want to do ingame while your production lines run.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I'd say he is trolling you. Or doesn't want competition.

actually, Ville is not trolling there. Its a bit extreme of an statement, but the way the production system is built, its true.

if he would want to compete with Ville he would need a years worth of extensions and a T3 gamma base at hand, with 20 alt accounts just macro mining or so.

or why do you think the market is so empty and every corp is setting up their own production to be self sufficient?
T1-T3 gear is worthless junk, T4 is relatively cheap seeded by Vets, PVE player hardly lose equip so for them its a one-time investment.

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Annihilator wrote:
LazerusKI wrote:

So basically i can delete my char and start a new one? sad

if deleting wouldn't have such a high penalty on it...
but it depends on what you want to do ingame while your production lines run.

DEV Zoom wrote:

I'd say he is trolling you. Or doesn't want competition.

actually, Ville is not trolling there. Its a bit extreme of an statement, but the way the production system is built, its true.

if he would want to compete with Ville he would need a years worth of extensions and a T3 gamma base at hand, with 20 alt accounts just macro mining or so.

or why do you think the market is so empty and every corp is setting up their own production to be self sufficient?
T1-T3 gear is worthless junk, T4 is relatively cheap seeded by Vets, PVE player hardly lose equip so for them its a one-time investment.

and let me guess, there are not enough newcommers? So its not even worth it to produce stuff for the Alpha market, and as soon as i enter Beta, i get shot?
So...building ammo is the only thing worth then it seems...

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Yeah and then people complain that the market is dead... I'm not sure "veteran advice" is what helps you here, they seem to be mostly stuck in their own bubble where everything less than perfect is worthless. (No offense intended.)

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

It's scary when Anni (!!!) understands certain game mechanics and balance better than Zoom. A very unexpected turn of events. Who could've thought.

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu
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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

I'm making about 2 billion a month turnover so there's room for sure.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."
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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

It takes 900k EP to be effective in industry where your produced goods put forth enough margin that it's effective to produce over selling your raw goods.  I made a lengthy thread about why the industry in perpetuum is so steep of an EP climb. 

Reality is, you just wasted your EP.

Your EP would be better spent getting to a riveler or symbiont then work on energy skills, it will be much more profitable AND time efficient.  The most important thing is your time.  That's why we have so many accounts.  We value our time.

Buy some credits put a booster on your account and stop stAring at your EP counter.

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12 Reply by LazerusKI (edited by LazerusKI 2014-10-23 23:08:12)

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

I think it is a little bit harder than it was in eve, even if the crafting process itself is way better.
Here we have a lot less markets to balance produced stuff, also i dont know where the players need stuff or how often they need it. in eve you could create a market with ammo everywhere.
Crafting is almost the same in any game with "veterans", best or nothing. I dont know what the gamma stuff is good for...i mean...i started a few days ago, still use my first Argano.
Currently i craft ammo, tried some rocketlauchners (sold 2 of them so far)
Ammo helped a lot...the amount of ressources is cheap, so i saved a lot of nic there.
I dont know, i think its fun. I have two screens, so i can harvest on one, and play minecraft or watch things on the other. And when there is another wave of newcommers, maybe i have some stuff stockpiled to sell there^^
It has no monthly fees, so nothing wasted.

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

That's the spirit!  Ok DEV bleeding heart, start the 3 month timer.

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Perhaps a rise of new Lucius Marcellus? BibleThump

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu
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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Zoom - you could boost that low level crafting just be replacing the 99% T1 loot drops with 10% T1- loot drops, and increasing the low-level decoders efficiency.

a second step would be balancing production costs. the most stupid industry change of the past was eg. making LASER beam ammo cost the same effort and material quantities as other ammo types. one-dimensional spreadsheet-balance that does not consider that for a same damge dealt, a laser needs more energy AND ammo then any other factional weapon system.

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

DEV Zoom wrote:

I'd say he is trolling you. Or doesn't want competition.

no he isn't, ... he did waste points in industry! neutral

17 Reply by LazerusKI (edited by LazerusKI 2014-10-24 09:47:22)

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

But if it is a waste of points, what exactly is the problem?
Sure, i noticed myself that i can find a T1 weapon like each 4 or 5 kills if im lucky.
But what about T2 and higher?
Another thing that i noticed (possibly related to this) is, that the weapons are worth almost nothing. I think for a T1 EM i need to spend 16k NIC (cant log in right now), but they sell for around 22k + materials. So in theory, it would be better to sell the ressources on the market, instead of hoping for a full buyout of the weapons?
If thats the problem that breaks industry, shouldnt it be changed?

Or is the problem, that there are more veterans than newcommers, so that there is no use for lowtech things.
In eve i had for example a problem with bigger weapons...i could not hit smaller enemies with them. If thats different here, isnt that a slightly flawed design? I read it with missiles, that big missiles deal less damage to small targets, but since there are only 3 types of missiles, i cant see a real problem there :s

The third problem i currently have...there are no Decoders in the market...

I dont know...maybe i should spend my next points in combat then, and keep Industry for some of the "rare" drops and ammo.

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

You don't need 900k ep at all, that's rubbish.

Start with ammo, move to mk2 lights and assaults, make sure you sell outside of the major hubs and you will make money.

Your only issue is trying to compete with the guys monitising stocks they won't use at less than mineral cost but just don't bother competing, fill the holes.

Considering gamma is open the mk2 market is wide open right now. Get a lolgarno and find them cortex's.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."
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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Jita wrote:

You don't need 900k ep at all, that's rubbish.

Start with ammo, move to mk2 lights and assaults, make sure you sell outside of the major hubs and you will make money.

Your only issue is trying to compete with the guys monitising stocks they won't use at less than mineral cost but just don't bother competing, fill the holes.

Considering gamma is open the mk2 market is wide open right now. Get a lolgarno and find them cortex's.

Ammo and charges are the only thing where you can make the % based to profit off the market; the problem is too many people do it.  You will significantly lose money by doing Lights and assaults.

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Annihilator wrote:

Zoom - you could boost that low level crafting just be replacing the 99% T1 loot drops with 10% T1- loot drops, and increasing the low-level decoders efficiency.

a second step would be balancing production costs. the most stupid industry change of the past was eg. making LASER beam ammo cost the same effort and material quantities as other ammo types. one-dimensional spreadsheet-balance that does not consider that for a same damge dealt, a laser needs more energy AND ammo then any other factional weapon system.

Your idea of balance is to create an extra step by removing content.  Although I agree with you to a degree it would create a "need" but it would also create an extreme hassle for production people and add to yet another step pushing inflation up in the market.

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Ville wrote:
Jita wrote:

You don't need 900k ep at all, that's rubbish.

Start with ammo, move to mk2 lights and assaults, make sure you sell outside of the major hubs and you will make money.

Your only issue is trying to compete with the guys monitising stocks they won't use at less than mineral cost but just don't bother competing, fill the holes.

Considering gamma is open the mk2 market is wide open right now. Get a lolgarno and find them cortex's.

Ammo and charges are the only thing where you can make the % based to profit off the market; the problem is too many people do it.  You will significantly lose money by doing Lights and assaults.

I said mk2 lights and assaults and you will not lose money.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."
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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Ville wrote:

Your idea of balance is to create an extra step by removing content.  Although I agree with you to a degree it would create a "need" but it would also create an extreme hassle for production people and add to yet another step pushing inflation up in the market.

well, my first step to create an enviroment where a real market would exist for new player and vets, would be putting like 10 semi-empty islands between the three alpha hubs, and make sure that you cannot build a laser bot on a green islands without importing at least two comodities from yellow territory,
but still ensure that can build a fully fit green robot there with the local resources.

currently thats not possible when you consider "repair modules" as default gear in PvE. kinetic hardener are considered blue tech.
also, they made factional materials always grow on two factions islands, effectively cutting demand down to a single resource that you can mine on your own because its effectively only one or two teleports away. Size difference between raw and processed materials is still negliable, and npc standing can be raised for all three factions. no wonder mineral market is the only one ever working.

in other words - there is just one market and nearly nothing to create a demand&supply difference that would leave space for lower EP player to start. same as PvP islands - it all depends on the goodwill of vets or their lazyness.

PS:
if jita seeded the alpha 1 market with ultra cheap stuff evenly, he effectively has removed the chance for a "trader" to buy cheap local products to sell it with slightly higher prize somewhere else. But because Jita wants to help, he did consider that, did he?

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

I seeded one alpha 2 with reasonably priced stuff, nothing is ultra cheap.

It's hard to balance market availability with undercutting emergent producers but there are plenty of gaps that I don't have anything up. I have 250 orders in one station.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

24 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2014-10-24 14:08:40)

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

Find a corporation with Gamma facilities and you'll be a capable producer from day 1.

Competing against veterans with higher EP and Gamma facilities is not worth it. Even Beta's bonuses are low so I'd stick to mining and trading until you have Gamma access or developers balance Beta.

25 Reply by Goffer (edited by Goffer 2014-10-25 11:57:45)

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Re: Is Industrial worth it? Trading aspect

First: Gamma station is not that power advancement for production of stuff that is sold on alpha market as others think it is. If you can produce with 10% less material effort, but need to haul important materials into island from larger distances plus have large haul effort to bring stuff back to market, you cannot just calculate 90% of alpha price. And beeing 5% cheaper seems a lot, but there is far more difference in price for raw materials than 5% if you consider daily and local variations.

If material on greens islands are 10% cheaper, it is not helpful, that you can produce on blue gamma 5% cheaper than others.

For the waste of EP:
- A miner needs no friends to be effective and while he need at least a week to get more than 50% of the amount a endgame miner gets, he still have a good living from day 1.
- A pure refiner/recycler will make no living in this game.
- A Producer will have the first 3 Month of gametime not much income. After 3 month EP (2 month with boost), focusing on production, not prototyping you can produce in a reasonable way if you have someone providing you with a CT.
- A trader needs a lot of starting NIC to have fun

To Dev Zoom: what can a solo producer do on day 1(-30)? He can produce Ammo/Charges. Selling Ammo with current activity will provide you less than 1M/day income and even that is not reachable if you do the easy way without spending time to produce and seed ammo everywhere. As soon as 2 other producer go the same way, fail is sure.
If he is in corp, he can support corp with ammo/charges and items that are actually only with very high margin  on market if he gets a CT. After ~30 days EP he will be able to produce a good variety of items on market buy price if he gets a CT but he will still not be able to sell with a reasonable margin (so he might find himself mining without skills)