1 (edited by Azhuire 2010-11-20 02:34:08)

Topic: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

The addition of the tagging system is really helpful most of the time.

However, it can be abused.  For example, today I ran into some abuse of this new feature:
Two players had been camping an area for some time, destroying a small spawn and farming things, probably in a squad.  I had an assignment at this location, or I would have avoided it.

When I arrived, three NPC bots spawned.  These players immediately targeted and fired upon spawning bots once to tag them.  They could then destroy the targets at their leisure, and I was left stuck with regard to completing the assignment.

When the dynamic spawning gets put in, the supply of NPCs issue is fixed.  However, this issue will not be.

As bots can only fire upon one target, despite how many they have locked, the tagging system should only tag ONE bot at a time.
If a new bot is fired upon - one that has no tag - the tag should be removed from the old tagged bot and applied to the newly tagged bot.
Otherwise, the tag should stay on the old bot.

Last kill was a bad idea, and it's good that it's first come & first serve now, but to be better, this needs to be limited in application.

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Your suggestion sounds like a good idea. In effect, you become the owner of the loot if you have flagged the target and it is your primary target.

I'm always a little wary of over complicating gaming mechanics, but this would seem a straightforward change. I imagine the agents abusing the current loot system wouldn't like this change, but it does seem fairer.

A simpler solution maybe to reduce the time that a target remains flagged. If it was reduced to some thing like 10 seconds, then targets that are not primaries are likely to drop their flag.

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

I've met some campers too, the bad ones that don't even answer, and i have to agree to this one-tag idea.

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

It's a nice idea but has a down side for solo farmers. Multiple enemy targets that move in and out of range will mean you're switching targets to the ones most likely to do damage to you and to the ones you can do damage to due to terrain differences. A solo farmer could have to switch targets and leave an enemy low on health but free to be tagged by someone else.

It's a nice idea but does have it's down sides. Tag squads will ultimately be what is used to grief.

The Game

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

When last I checked a light bot is capable of holding 3 target locks.  You also do not have to fire all guns at once.  Thus, the standard bot is entirely capable of maintaining fire, and tag on 3 targets.

The Blind Bot -- watch your six, my aim aint so good these days!

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

That's a good point. A robot can only easily keep tagged as many targets as it can lock (Plus 1 if lock time short than 10 seconds)

The Game

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Get a sensor and get more accelerated target locking. If that still doesn't work, get a second sensor. No one should be able to tap 2 mobs before you can tap one.

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Lege wrote:

Get a sensor and get more accelerated target locking. If that still doesn't work, get a second sensor. No one should be able to tap 2 mobs before you can tap one.

Yeah uhhh Castels target faster than Yagels, no matter what.

I have a sensor amp and Accelerated Target Locking 5.  But stupid farmers farming assignment spots screw people over this way:
http://www.evilgreven.net/images/perpet … agonly.jpg

9 (edited by Relandi 2010-11-20 22:14:33)

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

I am NOT for placing faux restrictions on people that could be avoided by a) finding a different spot (you don't NEED to do that mission that 10 others are doing.) b) upping your locking or c) try again later..

This just seems like someone's upset and wants a superficial change to make it easier.

Nothing needs to be changed - bots/mechs have a limit on targets locked.

I also strongly agree with Alexanders point about solo farming.. higher tier mobs have a very bizzare AI structure .. and they like to sprint like they just stole something back to the middle of the group very often - causing agony for this "1 tag" method.

10 (edited by Azhuire 2010-11-20 22:26:30)

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Relandi wrote:

I am NOT for placing faux restrictions on people that could be avoided by a) finding a different spot (you don't NEED to do that mission that 10 others are doing.) b) upping your locking or c) try again later..

This just seems like someone's upset and wants a superficial change to make it easier.

Nothing needs to be changed - bots/mechs have a limit on targets locked.

I also strongly agree with Alexanders point about solo farming.. higher tier mobs have a very bizzare AI structure .. and they like to sprint like they just stole something back to the middle of the group very often - causing agony for this "1 tag" method.

But they're not doing an assignment or they would leave after a few minutes.  No, they're farming loot or kernals for research. Bots and mechs have a limit on targets locked, but they can rather easily keep that many targets tagged while they slowly destroy them.

This is the fifth incident in 20 hours.

Two farmers at one spawn in Arkhes can lock it down due to the maximum spawned bots at a time.  It's worse in something bigger, or especially worse when they are using something like a Castel that further enhances their locking speed.  It took me 40 minutes with these same two jerks (http://www.evilgreven.net/images/perpet … agonly.jpg) farming kernals to finally finish my assignment.   Should have taken 5-10 minutes max.   I only ended up getting hits in when they were reloading more than one launcher - they would only shoot one launcher at a target at a time.

As for the bizarre AI structure, if you want to fight higher level enemies - do it in a squad.  This is an MMO.  Soloing difficult things by kiting them is your own damn risk.

11 (edited by Relandi 2010-11-20 22:44:29)

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Likewise - you being unable to lock and tag is YOUR problem.

Get in a squad and control tags that way, use your own advice.

I spent the points to avoid just this issue, and I'm all the better for it, and long past any assignments that have "taggers" sitting at them. I'd suggest you do the same, rather than asking for a "gimme now" fix.

Also, the bizzare AI I spoke about happens regardless of if you're in a squad or not, so your advice there is moot. Squad or not, you don't wade into the middle of an E-War spawn.

12 (edited by Azhuire 2010-11-20 23:03:33)

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

That's a false equivalency.  The assignment is something that someone needs to do within a certain period of time.  You don't have to farm whatever you're farming in any specific time frame.  You don't have to kite messy spawns in any specific time frame.

Being unable to out-target-lock a Castel while in a Yagel with level 5 in Advanced Target Locking and a Sensor Amplifier running is certainly something I can fix.... only by using a Castel.  So everyone in my squad would have to be in a Castel, otherwise they are useless.  And they need to have pretty good advanced targeting locking and a sensor amp and all this mess just to counter two guys abusing a new combat system. 

Yeah that's certainly not a lot of stuff just to counter two guys in Castels multi-tagging.  Before this very recent change, this never happened because the system was not based on tagging, as it is now.  Tagging is new, but it isn't perfect and it needs to be changed.  It would not matter if I am in a squad if none of us could out-target-lock these two farmers.  I spent points to avoid this issue as well.  But I balanced it with being able to destroy things.

Your only counterargument is essentially that I'm 'crying.'  I spent points to avoid this issue too, but I didn't start out as TM - instead, I went ICS. 

The bizarre AI you spoke about I know about.  You kite mobs out of a group to kill them.  Yippee? I know it happens while not in a squad, but this is an entirely separate issue from the tagging system being easily abused.

Which is better for the game - annoy and frustrate people who are trying to do assignments or cater to very, very specific issues that should be addressed in another way?  It's not just me that finds this problematic.  Don't assume you are everyone.

13 (edited by Relandi 2010-11-20 23:39:30)

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

This has been easily avoided by hundreds of others, you seem to be the only one wanting it changed.

Just sayin' there are facets of gameplay within the game that allow you to adjust, and deal with said issue. No developer intervention is needed, this is a sandbox - not a game for hand holding.

There is no reason to limit "tags" when there's already a limit on amount of targets locked, pretty simple to me.

Really - if you add this, I'll just bring out my alt account and use both to tag. This will still be an issue, but now only the people who paid for spare accounts can abuse it.. seems like a *** option to me.

Also, the AI I spoke of, you clearly do not know about, because it happens regardless of "kiting" (lol, kiting..). As well, the higher tier mobs I am killing ARE indeed for a quest, within a timeframe.

Again, heed your own words. You are not everyone.

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Relandi wrote:

This has been easily avoided by hundreds of others, you seem to be the only one wanting it changed.

Just sayin' there are facets of gameplay with-in the game that allow you to adjust, and deal with said issue. No developer intervention is needed, this is a sandbox - not a game for hand holding.

There is no reason to limit "tags" when there's already a limit on amount of targets locked, pretty simple to me.

Really - if you add this, I'll just bring out my alt account and use both to tag. This will still be an issue, but now only the people who paid for spare accounts can abuse it.. seems like a *** option to me.

Also, the AI I spoke of, you clearly do not know about, because it happens regardless of "kiting" (lol, kiting..).

Again, heed your own words. You are not everyone.

How many topics are in this forum?  Not many.  By your logic, hundreds are NOT wanting new features, since there are clearly far more people playing than the number of topics and posts in this forum.  Study logic sometime, would you?  These are terrible arguments.

Why do you enjoy this BRAND NEW SYSTEM so much?  It is a "faux restriction" that you first complained about me wanting.  It wasn't beta tested like this.  You should know that.  This is a new thing, and new things may have problems.  In this case, I feel that the problem is the number of tags allowed.  Devs intervened about the killstealing from the previous system by changing it to the current system, and if they agree with my point of view, this system will be changed as well.

The spawns as they are right now, are around 4-6 maximum NPCs at a location.  Two arkhes, if they were sufficiently speedy at locking, could keep it completely locked down.  However, one arkhe could keep it locked down pretty well with the time it takes to respawn NPCs.  This problem expands as you move up the ladder in bots - lights can do 3, so pairs can completely lock down 6.  And a single one can nearly lock down an entire spawn.   If the person is sufficiently fast enough at destroying npcs and fast at targeting, one light bot can completely lock down a smaller spawn - especially a Castel with its locking bonus.

Your alt account account would only be able to tag one bot as well.  Meaning two NPCs are tagged at a time.  However, one person - right now - can keep three NPCs permanently tagged in a single light bot by cycling weapons and primary target among the three maximum targets.  And if he's able to kill one NPC before the fourth one spawns, he completely locks down a small spawn.  Your dual-boxing approach would only be able to ensure two tags, if the system was limited to a single tag rather than as it is now.  Your point is completely wrong.

I know they run back at high speeds on occasion.  I was in beta too.   Communication breakdown does not mean you know something that I do not.  It's more pronounced when you kite them away from groups, and yes it does happen regardless of doing so.  Still, if it is intentional, it's definitely related to the devs wanting kiting to be more difficult.  Either way, it's not a targeting thing, that's an AI thing.  Make a topic about that.  That's what this forum is for.

Indeed, and not everyone reads/posts on the forums.

15 (edited by Relandi 2010-11-21 00:03:46)

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

I have to wonder how much you're even reading before you're spewing out blocks of text with little to no point to them. I get it, you want it fixed for you, now.

To be honest, both ways don't affect me. My issue is; To see a game toted as a sandbox, then see them turn around and start restricting gameplay, would be absolutely contrary to their vision. I doubt it will happen.

The above mention of dropping tag timer down to 10 seconds, would be ample. This does not restrict the player from maintaining targets if they can - but allows a window for people like you who seem to have issues catching a break.

I've made my points, power to you and your continued fight for an "easy" button.

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

One tag per bot sounds like a good fix to me.

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Reduce tag time to 10 seconds would be okay. Simply stagger weapons if you're cycle time is less than 10 seconds. (Some missile launchers robots with poor skills will have a cycle time over 10 seconds I believe)

The Game

18 (edited by Zhyntil 2010-11-21 07:57:20)

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

I agree with needing some changes here, I just spent the last 40 min trying then dropping quests (3 of them) only to get into the quest area and have it swarmed with people farming kernels. a bot spawns in, it is tagged and usually dead before i can even get lock, (5 points in lock times, and using a sensor booster) It is a real issue, but limiting to one tag per bot has multiple other problems that were mentioned here.

At the same time, people flaming the OP because "no one else wants this" and "if this was real there would be hundreds of threads" is absurd, For one; this was a problem before the wipe, is a problem now, and will get worse as the more hardcore get into better and better mechs, but still come back to the newb mission areas to farm kernels. For another the forums were wiped and restarted what, three days ago?

This is feature discussion and requests, not fanboi-flame-the-disenters. There is a difference between disagreeing with the OP and whipping out a flamethrower because someone makes a suggestion you do not like.

Who the $#@% is stEvE?

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Lege wrote:

Get a sensor and get more accelerated target locking. If that still doesn't work, get a second sensor. No one should be able to tap 2 mobs before you can tap one.

I can target and tag 3 NPCs in no more than 1 second longer than it would have taken me to target 1.

Select -> R -> Select -> F -> Select -> F

(wait for timer to wind down)

1 Tab R 2 Tab R 3.    BOOM! 3 NPC's all tagged by me.  If you have anything more than a couple seconds longer locking time than me or so, I will get the spawn.

If you really are having trouble getting spawns, just go somewhere else.  I've been to some spawns where the other player beats me every time to the spawn.  I decided not to spend as much EP on targetting speed as he did, so he had the advantage.  I accept this and move on, or wait for things to clear up enough that theres enough spawns to satisfy both of us at the same time.

This is part of the game.  Get used to it.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Neoxx wrote:
Lege wrote:

Get a sensor and get more accelerated target locking. If that still doesn't work, get a second sensor. No one should be able to tap 2 mobs before you can tap one.

I can target and tag 3 NPCs in no more than 1 second longer than it would have taken me to target 1.

Select -> R -> Select -> F -> Select -> F

(wait for timer to wind down)

1 Tab R 2 Tab R 3.    BOOM! 3 NPC's all tagged by me.  If you have anything more than a couple seconds longer locking time than me or so, I will get the spawn.

If you really are having trouble getting spawns, just go somewhere else.  I've been to some spawns where the other player beats me every time to the spawn.  I decided not to spend as much EP on targetting speed as he did, so he had the advantage.  I accept this and move on, or wait for things to clear up enough that theres enough spawns to satisfy both of us at the same time.

This is part of the game.  Get used to it.

The point the OP is trying to make though is that newbs cannot complete many of the missions because people in better mechs/skills are farming their areas, i usually agree with your viewpoint on this (and dropped three missions to get others to try), but it does not take much of this type of thing for a newb to say screw it, I am going to play <insert name of any other game>.
Saying to go somewhere else, when most areas are farmed is not an answer. It is also not a viable answer when some are industrial, merchant, relations, or whatever other types of builds there are.

You show how you can lock out others from an area by yourself, The OP, me and a few others have shown that it happens a lot in different places.
The point is not that some have a bad build, or that some areas will naturally be farmed, it is how to keep people from getting frustrated and leaving the game because of overactive farming. It does not help that most in these larger mechs will ignore requests from others to get a few kills or get rude and start calling names.......for many of us that is part of being in an MMO and is just accepted, but when this happens regularly to new players, you will lose many of those new players, and this game will die like so many others.

Who the $#@% is stEvE?

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

I strongly dissagree with this. It would increase the time waiting between targeting objects, would eliminate the targeted objects skills etc. Just go somewhere else if someone is targeting in advance. Makes things a bit more twitch if there is competition.

Its whines like this that dumb down games.

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

VectorX wrote:

I strongly dissagree with this. It would increase the time waiting between targeting objects, would eliminate the targeted objects skills etc. Just go somewhere else if someone is targeting in advance. Makes things a bit more twitch if there is competition.

Its whines like this that dumb down games.

You are not reading what people are saying, there are times when most newb quest areas are being farmed, going somewhere else at that point is not really an option.
I do not agree with the OP's suggestion, but they have a point,  there is a problem, and it will drive off new players if they are spending a lot of time "going somewhere else" or there is no where else to go.

i would totally agree with you if we were talking about something on a beta island or higher level spawns, but we are talking about the same areas that brand-new-just-finished-the-tut toons are trying out their first missions.
It can turn an interested newb into "f-this, going back to <insert game name here>" after trying several missions and finding nothing but a field full of larger mechs instapopping spawns within seconds over and over.
This will actually only get worse, as the people going back to the newb areas to farm will be in better and better mechs. One person can effectively "lock down" an area so that any newer toon will be out of luck, with limited areas that the newbs run, it would only take 4-5 people doing this on an alpha island to block all newbs on that island from doing anything.

Issues like this are what can kill games, no new players, no new money, no new blood, you end up with the old timers sitting around griping how newbs ruined their game until the plug is finally pulled.

Who the $#@% is stEvE?

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

I tried tagging one bot at a time and it in no way slowed me down. Target three bots, tag one. If one or both of the others gets tagged, I drop them and start targeting another while finishing off the first. I killed one bot after another without a problem.

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Azhuire wrote:

But they're not doing an assignment or they would leave after a few minutes.  No, they're farming loot or kernals for research. Bots and mechs have a limit on targets locked, but they can rather easily keep that many targets tagged while they slowly destroy them.

I agree, that the locking speed bonus on castels makes racing for kills a very one sided game, as they will lock 20-25% faster given similar skill levels. Limiting the number of tagged targets is not the answer however. I do not think however, that this mens the number of max tagged targets should go down. You should merely stop trying to think solo. If castels are a problem, group up with someone that has one and start running missions with him. In my little group for example, i sit in a castel. I can't really hurt the stuff we are fighting, as they have strong resists against my damage type, but i can make sure, that whereever we go, we get the kills we want. As a group. That's called teamplay.

Azhuire wrote:

Two farmers at one spawn in Arkhes can lock it down due to the maximum spawned bots at a time.  It's worse in something bigger, or especially worse when they are using something like a Castel that further enhances their locking speed.  It took me 40 minutes with these same two jerks (http://www.evilgreven.net/images/perpet … agonly.jpg) farming kernals to finally finish my assignment.

While i understand your frustration, you should really refrain from calling people you do not even know jerks, just because they made your life harder. You have to understand this:
1) they dont care about your feelings, why should they? you are a complete stranger to them.
2) you need 100s /1000s of kernels of a given level and color so its not like they were farming because they had noplace better to go, but most likely because they needed that specific color / level.
3) there are lots of missions you can do, not just one. If one spot is camped, just abandon and pick a different one.

Azhuire wrote:

As for the bizarre AI structure, if you want to fight higher level enemies - do it in a squad.  This is an MMO.  Soloing difficult things by kiting them is your own damn risk.

Its sort of cute, how you tell people to do things in a squad, yet you whine about squads of people grabbing all kills away from you smile Take some of your own medicine.

25 (edited by Azhuire 2010-11-23 20:51:16)

Re: [Combat] Limit the new Tag system to 1 tagged target.

Peach, you clearly don't understand the problem.  You 'understanding' mine and others frustration is not getting the point.  Also, they were jerks for tagging multiple bots each.  Remember, this entire tagging system came into effect as beta ended - it wasn't tested, it wasn't exploited, it wasn't fixed.  Why is it so heartily defended!?  Because it serves your self interest, I suppose, at the expense of others.

Zhyntil spelled it out quite well.  And others understand it, too.

It isn't about freedom.
It isn't about skills.
It isn't about dumbing down the game.
It isn't even about grouping.

It's about keeping people from being frustrated and just leaving - specifically for people who haven't played all through beta and are just starting on the Alpha islands.  The entire point of this suggestion is to reduce frustration.

You completely ignore the context with which that 'do it in a squad' comment was said - he complained about NEEDING to be able to tag multiple, difficult enemies while soloing, because the AI sent them back into (or past) a dangerous group.  That's not in any way related to this at all.