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Re: Gamma revamp testing

This might be a curveball, but have you considered making the Gamma Terminals have their own "equipment screens" like robots do, and turning the facilities/facility upgrades into "gamma modules" you slot into your terminal internally?

Might reduce the "sprawling forest" a little bit.

Multi-tile walls & gates could be added as a prerequisite for installing turrets into the wall in a similar fashion, creating actual bases rather then "sprawling forests".

Terraforming shouldn't be a replacement for walls IMO.

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152 Reply by Gremrod (edited by Gremrod 2014-05-15 18:57:52)

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Syndic wrote:

This might be a curveball, but have you considered making the Gamma Terminals have their own "equipment screens" like robots do, and turning the facilities/facility upgrades into "gamma modules" you slot into your terminal internally?

Might reduce the "sprawling forest" a little bit.

Multi-tile walls & gates could be added as a prerequisite for installing turrets into the wall in a similar fashion, creating actual bases rather then "sprawling forests".

Terraforming shouldn't be a replacement for walls IMO.

I like it. Simple and elegant.

What the term? Keep it simple stupid.

Just make TF where you cannot TF anything that blocks any type of bot/mech. There must always be some ramp that a heavy mech can move up.

If you want to protect yourself from the outside build the walls that Syndic speaks of and put turrets up.

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Tux wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

I think for a re-release of gamma the islands should not be the same as the islands that got wiped.

I think the Devs would use the same islands just to save time in coding. maybe as zoom mentioned move around some teleports but there needs to be a common balance between all of the gamma Islands.

I was hoping for new islands ... it would bring some fresh life in to this whole proccess.

We could regenerate any of the islands if you think some of the terrain features are not suitable for gamma mechanics. Like if you want more of the very traversable northern type islands, or islands split into smaller islands and connected with internal teleports.

Now is the time for that, and only you can tell this, since you have the experience with it.

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Syndic wrote:

This might be a curveball, but have you considered making the Gamma Terminals have their own "equipment screens" like robots do, and turning the facilities/facility upgrades into "gamma modules" you slot into your terminal internally?

I think we actually did, early on. But it was decided that it would take out of the "city" feel too much. Granted it created some more problems too, like CTs getting stuck if you lose the factory building even though they are technically not located in it. So we're not against spending some thoughts on revisiting that.

155 Reply by Ville

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:
Tux wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

I think for a re-release of gamma the islands should not be the same as the islands that got wiped.

I think the Devs would use the same islands just to save time in coding. maybe as zoom mentioned move around some teleports but there needs to be a common balance between all of the gamma Islands.

I was hoping for new islands ... it would bring some fresh life in to this whole proccess.

We could regenerate any of the islands if you think some of the terrain features are not suitable for gamma mechanics. Like if you want more of the very traversable northern type islands, or islands split into smaller islands and connected with internal teleports.

Now is the time for that, and only you can tell this, since you have the experience with it.

I would love to see some smaller inner islands! 

But my one request is a pvp island like Hershfield <3

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Ok, new idea:

Instead of the various terraforming range limitation rules (terminal-teleport range, within terminal range, no peninsulas, whatever), we could just simply paint the terraformable areas for each island manually. Which would basically mean the inner parts of an island. This method would also make it pretty straightforward to display it on the map, similar to the slope map. (And is also more precise than distance calculations.)

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:
Tux wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

I think for a re-release of gamma the islands should not be the same as the islands that got wiped.

I think the Devs would use the same islands just to save time in coding. maybe as zoom mentioned move around some teleports but there needs to be a common balance between all of the gamma Islands.

I was hoping for new islands ... it would bring some fresh life in to this whole proccess.

We could regenerate any of the islands if you think some of the terrain features are not suitable for gamma mechanics. Like if you want more of the very traversable northern type islands, or islands split into smaller islands and connected with internal teleports.

Now is the time for that, and only you can tell this, since you have the experience with it.

I would say yes but that is just me.

What does everyone else think?

Keep the same gamma islands or have them generate new islands for the gamma 2.0 release?

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

You'd have to do something about the various plateau's on green/yellow islands that allow creation of unbreachable outposts (since you'd need the old terraforming to cut through the terrain).

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

how about you start with NO terraforming aside of smoothing for building placement and concentrate your effort on base building mechanics?

Let the pro-gamer test out on that PTS building, defending and attacking bases that have to be built upon existing, random generated terrain.

while they test things out, fix the the gameplay experience on live server, aka finish up that mission system that most Steam player seem to see as the core beginner gameplay after the tutorial island.

Then think about terraforming again, as it seems to be your hardest to balance feature...

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160 Reply by Ville

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ok, new idea:

Instead of the various terraforming range limitation rules (terminal-teleport range, within terminal range, no peninsulas, whatever), we could just simply paint the terraformable areas for each island manually. Which would basically mean the inner parts of an island. This method would also make it pretty straightforward to display it on the map, similar to the slope map. (And is also more precise than distance calculations.)

WTB Demo map first.

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161 Reply by Grond

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

id realy like to se the walls distribute the damage among them and gate like walls
¨

162 Reply by Tux

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ok, new idea:

Instead of the various terraforming range limitation rules (terminal-teleport range, within terminal range, no peninsulas, whatever), we could just simply paint the terraformable areas for each island manually. Which would basically mean the inner parts of an island. This method would also make it pretty straightforward to display it on the map, similar to the slope map. (And is also more precise than distance calculations.)

I really do not like the restrictions on terraforming .. If terraforming gets to heavily restricted there is little incentive to spend the time and effort building a gamma island.

Why is it so important to limit terraforming ... terraforming is the main aspect that separates gamma form all of the other islands.
what is the point in limiting areas of terraforming ?is it to make it so you cant lock off an island ?

If you can only place 1 terminal and are limited to a 1 to 3KM build radius form the terminal for turrets and all TF on the island erodes back to its original state if not with in 300M of a structure then what is the point of limiting any area on the island for terraforming.

Any TF away from the gamma base will go back to its original state  so if the ownign corp tries to tf a gate closed they will not be able to secure that gate because of turret distance restrictions ... because every gamma island has at least 2 teleports one will always be open for people to come through ... it may require a little effort but it wont be a 12 hour terraforming marathon just to get into the island.

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163 Reply by Tux

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Gremrod wrote:

Keep the same gamma islands or have them generate new islands for the gamma 2.0 release?

Zoom
this needs a poll ... I would like new islands in new places. = new map with new teleport connections .

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164 Reply by Tux

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:

We could regenerate any of the islands if you think some of the terrain features are not suitable for gamma mechanics. Like if you want more of the very traversable northern type islands, or islands split into smaller islands and connected with internal teleports.

Now is the time for that, and only you can tell this, since you have the experience with it.

I dont want the island to:

cookie cutter and all look like the old blue gammas
be chopped up like Landers bridge
have mountains like Guthraw
have unusable space in the center like davis barrier

Honestly it doesnt matter what the gamma island looks like to begin with if we are free to do what we want to with it.

Limit build height & depth +/- 50M if you need to  .. institute erosion 300M away from buildings and apply the structure changes you have done ... BUT  we need to keep the ability to terraform something other than Pyramids or gamma is not going to work ...

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165 Reply by Line

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

How about robots/buildings/bombs explosions produce some kind of craters on that place? Not that deep, more just for decoration purposes and for teh lulz.

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Tux wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

Keep the same gamma islands or have them generate new islands for the gamma 2.0 release?

Zoom
this needs a poll ... I would like new islands in new places. = new map with new teleport connections .

+1 on poll.

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Zoom,

Can an island be made up of small parts like this: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1AUX … sp=sharing

Sorry about my crude drawing.

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168 Reply by Rage Rex (edited by Rage Rex 2014-05-16 06:53:34)

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ok, new idea:

Instead of the various terraforming range limitation rules (terminal-teleport range, within terminal range, no peninsulas, whatever), we could just simply paint the terraformable areas for each island manually. Which would basically mean the inner parts of an island. This method would also make it pretty straightforward to display it on the map, similar to the slope map. (And is also more precise than distance calculations.)

Yes yes yes

I think full island Gamma terraforming is broken no matter how you measure the radius and slope restrictions. Read following for concept starting point based EXACTLY what Zoom just suggested.

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/96999/#p96999

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/97336/#p97336

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/97344/#p97344

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

When it comes to the Gamma islands them selves. Variation in island design & layout. That's all i have to say smile

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170 Reply by Inda (edited by Inda 2014-05-16 06:42:57)

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ok, new idea:

Instead of the various terraforming range limitation rules (terminal-teleport range, within terminal range, no peninsulas, whatever), we could just simply paint the terraformable areas for each island manually. Which would basically mean the inner parts of an island. This method would also make it pretty straightforward to display it on the map, similar to the slope map. (And is also more precise than distance calculations.)

+1

Test this out and we can decide after that.

I like the existing terraforming opportunites, with the new restrictions your creativity is over, you just can make, pyramids here and there, if you have such a unique game element (think about Minecraft succes) you should allow players to use it. Because many many players like planning and make good things.

ALSO:
Check out the Xiantor battle, I would allow to players to experience such a battle, with the said restrictions you cant do this siege/battle, that was AWESOME ! One of the best battle experience ingame from me!

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171 Reply by Tux

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Zoom take a island on gamma and make it how you would build a gamma and we can start from there ...

Make an island that you think industrialists and military players would like to live on

Were wasting time .. with all of this theory crafting

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

+1 it would be nice if you took the time to build your own version Zoom.

I think it's also important to mention that once this gamma-stuff is hashed out, there CANNOT be another "oh we're moving from 1km to 2km in 3 days" fiasco, or some obscure "2d/3d blabla" patchnote that just happens to invalidate every existing design. This needs to be fleshed out and perfected as much as possible on the test server, no matter how long it takes.

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Gremrod wrote:

Zoom,

Can an island be made up of small parts like this: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1AUX … sp=sharing

Sorry about my crude drawing.

nice drawing, looks like a perfect place to camp a teleport

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ok, new idea:

Instead of the various terraforming range limitation rules (terminal-teleport range, within terminal range, no peninsulas, whatever), we could just simply paint the terraformable areas for each island manually. Which would basically mean the inner parts of an island. This method would also make it pretty straightforward to display it on the map, similar to the slope map. (And is also more precise than distance calculations.)

i like that idea very much. of cource always depending how it will be done.


DEV Zoom wrote:

We could regenerate any of the islands if you think some of the terrain features are not suitable for gamma mechanics. Like if you want more of the very traversable northern type islands, or islands split into smaller islands and connected with internal teleports.

Now is the time for that, and only you can tell this, since you have the experience with it.

i think having more different island types might be a good idea. atm they are all single land mass maybe a few with seperate sub islands, rivers and other things that might make the landskape more intresting and bring different tactical options might be worth considering. surely nothing every island needs to have.

for everything else i think we need to look at the original islands again. can you upload a few screenshots of the islands (with slopes shown) for a better overview? now that we no longer can look at them ingame.

175 Reply by Cassius (edited by Cassius 2014-05-16 13:46:27)

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Re: Gamma revamp testing

Dont make this too complicated or limiting, otherwiise you will kill player creativity.
You allowed us to go to the extremes in Gamma 1.0

Instead of the micro detail "3km from here" etc, make Island wide ceiling limits

To Bandwidth ----------------------------------------------------------------(total structures)
To Geothermal Extraction --------------------------------------------------(total fuel)
To Terraforming +/- from the base tile. ----------------------------------(heights)
To total terraforming charges spent in relationship to the base tile. ---(island development)

The ceilings should be based on what a large corporations main home base would require for moderate defenses and all production facilities, highways, and mining.

These ceilings prevent undue server load, infinte base sprawl, infinte terraforming, max terraforimng heights.
They allow the largest corps to effectively build and develop that one island as their main base.
They allow the small corp to build their smaller base with more defenses.
They allow random corps the ability to build medium bases, mining bases, fortifications, whatever the player thinks of.

The ceilings FORCE the player to "spend" wisely

Build 10 terminals?, sure but you dont have any bandwidth to build facilities or defenses
Build 10 highways to everywhere? sure but you dont have the fuel to run your turrets
Terraform exhaustively around the teleports to make chokepoints? sure but you dont have enough terraform charges to use to do it to both teles or god forbid, 3
Spam 100 turrets, sure but ..... you get the idea.

You have to think. The landscape of each island becomes important.

Bases should be harder to kill but not impossible. You cannot say 100 people can kill 1 person, because this is an extreme example. You have to base the sustainability of the base on the median amount in a corp. You will always have corps larger and smaller than the median.

The basic idea here instead of micromanaging and new rules and slope limits which will only allow ONE type of base to efficiently be built ... is to create a sandbox gamma with better limits than Gamma 1.0, but still allow player creativity. having limits around the box, rather than inside the box. allows all differnent types and sizes of corporations to play in the same areas.

Ideas like terraforming erosion and no go limits around teles should be incorporated somehow.
I want roamable islands with sustainable bases.


@ Zoom ... you need to get off the "terraforming any vertical walls is bad" bullshit. 1000m monoliths, yes, bad and ugly. 100m neat fortifications, not so much. Do a poll with players, you may be surprised with the results.
Why try and introduce wall structures or enlongated wall structures when you already have the mechanics to do it.
And you guys need to build a demo base. A full demo base. You the Devs need to see for yourself exactly how sustainable what you are proposing. Before we waste our lives again on something with a faulty foundation.

The best part about Gamma was the ability to build our own Castles, and knock someone elses down. The worst part was it was taken to extremes.