101 (edited by Jita 2014-07-31 15:18:57)

Re: Improved NPC AI

Kaldenines wrote:

Well, there is grinding and there is grinding.  At the moment I am grinding towards a jet in war thunder.  Except what I am really doing is learning to fly a bunch of planes against real players who are often more experienced/better pilots than me.  In the higher tiers, in the realistic battles mode, every kill feels like an achievement.  There the "grind" is hard.

Ok, so war thunder it's not an mmo but the mmo market has been stale for years and it's only a matter of time before someone puts two and two together and makes an mmo where the grind is enjoyable and challenging.

Like Cassius said, in perp (like most other mmos) the grind is a means to an end and is just about efficiency.

Weird thing is grinding in firefall makes me want to kill myself. Grinding in defiance is actually quite fun. The way in which you do it is fairly identical in both games and I'm trying to work out why I like one but not the other. Maybe because i like shooting people better than I do monsters or some shizzle.

I never liked ratting in perp before the bug but I dont mind after. Its quite relaxing like mining.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Improved NPC AI

Jita wrote:
Kaldenines wrote:

Well, there is grinding and there is grinding.  At the moment I am grinding towards a jet in war thunder.  Except what I am really doing is learning to fly a bunch of planes against real players who are often more experienced/better pilots than me.  In the higher tiers, in the realistic battles mode, every kill feels like an achievement.  There the "grind" is hard.

Ok, so war thunder it's not an mmo but the mmo market has been stale for years and it's only a matter of time before someone puts two and two together and makes an mmo where the grind is enjoyable and challenging.

Like Cassius said, in perp (like most other mmos) the grind is a means to an end and is just about efficiency.

Weird thing is grinding in firefall makes me want to kill myself. Grinding in defiance is actually quite fun. The way in which you do it is fairly identical in both games and I'm trying to work out why I like one but not the other. Maybe because i like shooting people better than I do monsters or some shizzle.

I never liked ratting in perp before the bug but I don't mind after. Its quite relaxing like mining.

I think I get what you mean. Ratting is still a bore the same as before but at least now it's more relaxed without the need to alt tab and micromanage it too much. Although it's not completely passive still needs to shoot collect loot etc. I think the main change need to come in rebalancing or adding new bots for this purpose, nothing overpowered just kill the need for support.

Another option is to add stack tuning penalties , I have asked for this many times.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Improved NPC AI

Celebro wrote:

Another option is to add stack tuning penalties , I have asked for this many times.

be carefull what you are asking for. because THAT will create exactly, and really, exactly the same discussion.
with tunings not stacking the way the do now, you nerf the DPS bot in the DPS/Buffbot combo. Again, it will not affect the single account robots that couldn't fit that many tuners anyway (because they have to fit dual SA), but it will directly nerf the ones that have "just bought a second afk account to free their DPS bot of those limiting self-repair and sensor-amp modules.

Automatically someone will throw in the "new player" joker about how this will gimp all the imaginary new player trying to keep up with maxed out research 10-account multiboxers that have exploited the old system for years now.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: Improved NPC AI

I tried farming a light bot spawn on Dom with my Gropho and a follow bot.  I found the aggressive nature of ECMs and the amount of ewar on the bots a little overwhelming.  I constantly had to keep flipping to my follow bot put back up buffs than back to the Gropho to lock one target and then back to the follow bot, then back to the main. 

This is not FUN game play.  I farm with Ville on Tellesis a lot.  And it is as previously stated a lot more relaxing sitting around hanging out with the guys in TeamSpeak chatting about anything and everything while pressing spacebar.  I hate the missions.  The missions in this game are horrible.  They do not entertain me.  NPC grinding if I had to do it solo would bore me to tears,  but I do not think the right path is moving from boring to tears to annoyingly less efficient.  Atleast at the end of the tunnel boring to tears has a reward, plasma.  Annoyingly less efficient will make me go find something else to do.  Like Robocraft.

Re: Improved NPC AI

Bukkwild wrote:

I tried farming a light bot spawn on Dom with my Gropho and a follow bot.  I found the aggressive nature of ECMs and the amount of ewar on the bots a little overwhelming.  I constantly had to keep flipping to my follow bot put back up buffs than back to the Gropho to lock one target and then back to the follow bot, then back to the main. 

This is not FUN game play.  I farm with Ville on Tellesis a lot.  And it is as previously stated a lot more relaxing sitting around hanging out with the guys in TeamSpeak chatting about anything and everything while pressing spacebar.  I hate the missions.  The missions in this game are horrible.  They do not entertain me.  NPC grinding if I had to do it solo would bore me to tears,  but I do not think the right path is moving from boring to tears to annoyingly less efficient.  Atleast at the end of the tunnel boring to tears has a reward, plasma.  Annoyingly less efficient will make me go find something else to do.  Like Robocraft.

Yep.  Also, plasma is currently the only reliable form of income.

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Re: Improved NPC AI

Just to add to the above.  I don't think people are against challenging content per se.  It's just that grinding a spawn or doing beacons is only going to be challenging if you chose to make it hard for yourself (like spawn a lot of beacons at once but apparently that's an exploit). 

If you want to make something hard you also have to make it worth doing or people simply won't bother.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Improved NPC AI

perhaps you could elaborate for what you need all those billions of NIC that you need to grind NPCs so efficienently, even on noob level.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: Improved NPC AI

Annihilator wrote:

perhaps you could elaborate for what you need all those billions of NIC that you need to grind NPCs so efficienently, even on noob level.

translate.google.com could not save this post ;/

Population graphs

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Re: Improved NPC AI

I still say its a good change. It's not like this change prevents you from using a heavy with logi to farm npcs. It just makes it a little more difficult and adds in a little risk of actually losing a bot. At a certain point, farming npcs is about as safe as mining on alpha. The only real risk was if a spawn rolled up on me while I was running to the beer store. I couldn't tell you the last time I lost a bot while farming npcs. It just seems like it shouldn't be that safe...

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Re: Improved NPC AI

Shadowmine wrote:

I still say its a good change. It's not like this change prevents you from using a heavy with logi to farm npcs. It just makes it a little more difficult and adds in a little risk of actually losing a bot. At a certain point, farming npcs is about as safe as mining on alpha. The only real risk was if a spawn rolled up on me while I was running to the beer store. I couldn't tell you the last time I lost a bot while farming npcs. It just seems like it shouldn't be that safe...

What about the side effect on miners that transfer energy or on pvp fleets that want to run RSA?

+1
-Confucius

111 (edited by Syndic 2014-08-01 00:15:54)

Re: Improved NPC AI

"Making things harder simply reduces the number of groups that can compete. Real fixes require making the activity unnecessary rather than trying to punish those who use it."

Innominate, TMC

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112 (edited by Kaldenines 2014-08-01 00:38:25)

Re: Improved NPC AI

sauce: http://themittani.com/features/rethinki … page=0%2C0

Quite a good article (not by mittens) there.

We’re playing today in a nullsec which is almost completely bipolar. Many decry this as the result of inferior players simply averse to risk, but the reality is that this is the natural outcome of the current sov system. These coalitions are created and driven by the game mechanics that necessitate their existence.

That made me smile smile

Having isk alone should not be sufficient to hold sov. Holding sov should only cost a token amount of isk, but should require a significant expenditure of effort on the part of the residents. Not effort in the sense of fueling POS, but actually living there and using the space.

See we are all in the same space-boat.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Improved NPC AI

Kaldenines wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:

I still say its a good change. It's not like this change prevents you from using a heavy with logi to farm npcs. It just makes it a little more difficult and adds in a little risk of actually losing a bot. At a certain point, farming npcs is about as safe as mining on alpha. The only real risk was if a spawn rolled up on me while I was running to the beer store. I couldn't tell you the last time I lost a bot while farming npcs. It just seems like it shouldn't be that safe...

What about the side effect on miners that transfer energy or on pvp fleets that want to run RSA?

TBH, I would tell the miners to learn to make yourself cap stable. And I would not order a pvp fleet to move near npcs unless able to deal with them. Or not use RSA's until you are ready to fight or out of range of npcs. Really not a big deal I think.

Besides, pvp fights with the rogue npc spawns running through them is always exciting...

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Scarab Kill Count:2

114

Re: Improved NPC AI

~Everything is fine~

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115 (edited by Kaldenines 2014-08-01 12:03:13)

Re: Improved NPC AI

Shadowmine wrote:

TBH, I would tell the miners to learn to make yourself cap stable.

Thats exactly the kind of attitude that drives people away from this game.  "Here are the tools to do something... what you want to actually use them?"

This change is not game breaking, it's just the latest of a long list of poorly implemented "fixes" that break at least two other unrelated things in the process.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Improved NPC AI

hmm, that article about EVE says NPC grinding there is to easy and broken because you can do it semi/full afk.

in other words, same as here. thank you syndic for digging up something to strengthen zoom's position.
thank you Shaddowmine pointing out the obvious,

and we are back to what i already said on page one - orange npcs do not need more work, because they are a placeholder anyway.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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117 (edited by Syndic 2014-08-01 14:24:26)

Re: Improved NPC AI

Zoom doesn't have any position to be strengthened, he views the game from some hypothetical perspective where enemy corporations live on the same island and assault bots run at turrets to drop plasma-bombs.

Here's a more relevant passage from the article;

"Some of this is our fault as players. We’ve gotten good at this game, and our organizations have gotten even better. Anytime CCP throws some new problem at us, we’re superb at figuring out a way to overcome or bypass it. We’ve taken it to the point where the amount of time and effort devoted to keeping nullsec working is simply beyond the ability of most players, and few organizations are left that can keep up.

Still, it’s not fair to blame the players here. Players will always eventually end up playing optimally within the game mechanics, regardless of whether those mechanics are detrimental to the game as a whole. In small games, the community can often prevent this, but as a player base expands the community norms lose power and game mechanics take over."

Consequently, Zoom & co. can spend 6 months developing something that a single smart guy will break like a twig in a day. And the only thing we will have to say on the topic is that "everything is fine".

Furthermore it's particularly entertaining watching you trying to slurp your way back into devskyping. Unfortunately for you, you suffer from the same problem as Zoom - you have no actual clue about how the game works.

So to cut it short... Everything is fine, keep churning out and coding those superb ideas! lol

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

118 (edited by Celebro 2014-08-01 15:10:09)

Re: Improved NPC AI

CCP; a multi million dollar game company can't fix their ***, then I wouldn't expect a minute indy company to solve some of the same issues this game has. No matter how hard you try some smart guy is always going to find a loophole, this has always been the nature of the business. Despite the same issues CCP has been successful mainly because it's been released much earlier when there was less competition and a stable large community has grown from then on.

These games live or die on a stable large community.

As you can see Eve has been successful with dumb NPCs to grind for resources. Many say, after a hard days work it helps you relax, if I want to play a more engaging game I would try an FPS instead. In Perp you are both the commander and the pilot, in Eve you're just the commander.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Improved NPC AI

Annihilator wrote:

hmm, that article about EVE says NPC grinding there is to easy and broken because you can do it semi/full afk.

That's only for ratting, missions and complexes, there is much more choice in Eve. Incursions is group pve play, very challenging. Wormhole sleepers is another option with PVE and PVP in the mix and also group play.

Devs have to create different styles of play and choices not just one.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Improved NPC AI

Annihilator wrote:

hmm, that article about EVE says NPC grinding there is to easy and broken because you can do it .

That's quite an impressive misrepresentation of what the article is about and what it actually says.  I suggest reading the source instead of relying on that summary.

+1
-Confucius

121

Re: Improved NPC AI

Kaldenines wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

hmm, that article about EVE says NPC grinding there is to easy and broken because you can do it .

That's quite an impressive misrepresentation of Perpetuum is about and what it actually happening.  I suggest playing the game instead of relying on the forums.

Fixed.

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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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122 (edited by Annihilator 2014-08-01 20:15:17)

Re: Improved NPC AI

Kaldenines wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

hmm, that article about EVE says NPC grinding there is to easy and broken because you can do it semi/full afk.

That's quite an impressive misrepresentation of what the article is about and what it actually says.  I suggest reading the source instead of relying on that summary.

its no interpretation of the article, its what is written on page 2 or 3 of it...

Syndic, you should try to get some fresh air. Your constant forum whining on the level of a teenager in puberty is keeping the game from progressing. After all, this NPC aggro fix was YOUR request.

Syndic wrote:

There are many people (screenshots can be provided) using support bots without any kind of shielding or supervision on Alpha to provide immortality to DPS heavy mechs who endlessly farm spawns & beacons.
The NPC's do not generate hate.
This is no longer an issue of mechanics. Now this is bug abuse, pure and simple.
And it's being abused like there's no tomorrow.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: Improved NPC AI

Kaldenines wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:

TBH, I would tell the miners to learn to make yourself cap stable.

Thats exactly the kind of attitude that drives people away from this game.  "Here are the tools to do something... what you want to actually use them?"

This change is not game breaking, it's just the latest of a long list of poorly implemented "fixes" that break at least two other unrelated things in the process.

I still say, if your mining bot needs remote energy, you are doing it wrong.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

124 (edited by Kaldenines 2014-08-01 22:56:38)

Re: Improved NPC AI

Shadowmine wrote:
Kaldenines wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:

TBH, I would tell the miners to learn to make yourself cap stable.

Thats exactly the kind of attitude that drives people away from this game.  "Here are the tools to do something... what you want to actually use them?"

This change is not game breaking, it's just the latest of a long list of poorly implemented "fixes" that break at least two other unrelated things in the process.

I still say, if your mining bot needs remote energy, you are doing it wrong.

The list of ways of playing this game that are "wrong" just keeps growing.

My mining bot transfers energy to my scarab so I can run a nexus and two small miners on it, is that wrong as well?

Thats all missing the point anyway.  The question is why are miners are taking a hit here?

+1
-Confucius

Re: Improved NPC AI

Yea, it kinda is. That scarab should be another riveler running a nexus and just bring the scarab in when you need to haul. But regardless, this change doesn't keep you from being able to do that anyway. You just have to watch out for npcs...  I guess I just don't see that its a big issue really. Maybe I'm wrong. It seems to me that you SHOULD have to worry about NPC's attacking you. I mean, otherwise, why are they even there?

While we as players are used to playing a certain way, we are experts at adapting our play to the mechanics we are given. This seems like an easy change to adapt to, while still achieving at least in part, some of what it is intended to.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2