Re: Improved NPC AI

Ville wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:

What is this change meant to hinder?

You can find the reasons and the rage somewhere in this or this topic.

Basically it was always meant to be like this, but the passive nature of orange NPCs has overridden this behavior.

I still say leave it as is.  A lot of this babble is about farming beacons.  Not static spawns which will be the one it effects the most.

I agree. This bug should be a feature.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Improved NPC AI

Kaldenines wrote:

Hmm, doesn't this kind of turn orange NPCs into guards/peacekeepers, especially on beta?

depends - the zoom just listed support mods to generate aggro. If you take him by word, you cannot just run into an orange spot and hope those npcs agressing the one shooting at you (or using a demob).

the other side of the coin is, all support roles in big fights do generate aggro from sourrounding npcs, while the combat bots do not. (tactical use of beacons?)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: Improved NPC AI

It's quite simple really: orange NPCs can only react to direct aggro, which means locking at the very least. Remote support modules can't get their attention that way, so they need to aggro directly to module usage.

We could of course do the same for weapons, NPC aggro when you're just PvPing someone. But I don't think that's needed to deal with the root issue, which is support bots standing around 24/7 unharmed. (Although this would solve the problem of different type spawns not aggroing in one place, but that will be reworked anyway somewhere around the mission revamp.)

Re: Improved NPC AI

Well back when we had red npcs we also had the ability to follow locked targets.  I just find this is going to be annoying trying to get my Remote sensor amps up, remote armor repair and energy transfer up, when all of a sudden npcs start targeting and ewaring.

And not to go into a rant here but you continue keep sticking it to Npc hunters.  First it was the follow/lock Nerf.  Then it was beta can no loot Nerf, now orange npc aggroing logi Nerf??  Grinding npcs for cash is not fun.  It is NOT a fun experience and if I am constantly flipping back and forth trying to reapply RSA,RAR, and ET.  While trying to kill a spawn, that sounds even more annoying than the previous grind fest!  And what pisses me off is your not promoting fun game play and reducing the yield of efficiency.  At the minimal give us something....  I want to see players grind less and pvp more.  An idea, is possibly raising the buy order amounts of plasma.  Hell here's a reason to take station raise the infinite buy order of plasma in betas from 325 to 525 per piece.  Just an idea.

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55 (edited by Celebro 2014-07-30 18:01:57)

Re: Improved NPC AI

Ville wrote:

Well back when we had red npcs we also had the ability to follow locked targets.  I just find this is going to be annoying trying to get my Remote sensor amps up, remote armor repair and energy transfer up, when all of a sudden npcs start targeting and ewaring.

And not to go into a rant here but you continue keep sticking it to Npc hunters.  First it was the follow/lock Nerf.  Then it was beta can no loot Nerf, now orange npc aggroing logi Nerf??  Grinding npcs for cash is not fun.  It is NOT a fun experience and if I am constantly flipping back and forth trying to reapply RSA,RAR, and ET.  While trying to kill a spawn, that sounds even more annoying than the previous grind fest!  And what pisses me off is your not promoting fun game play and reducing the yield of efficiency.  At the minimal give us something....  I want to see players grind less and pvp more.  An idea, is possibly raising the buy order amounts of plasma.  Hell here's a reason to take station raise the infinite buy order of plasma in betas from 325 to 525 per piece.  Just an idea.

Just raising plasma loot will only inflate prices, so eventually you will need to grind the same. Only raising loot drop or buffing mining will make you grind less for pvp.

Another option would be to add plasma loot on player bots to the same value as the insurance payout.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Improved NPC AI

Leave it alone, we need 2 more weeks to hit a trillion.

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Re: Improved NPC AI

People need a reason to fight over a Beta station other than Epeen, incentivizing this through increased Plasma buy orders could be enough to fight over a station.

In 1 PVP battle a corp could lose a Billion nic. in PVP loses.  Players (as proven in the past) don't go through the grind to be able to chance it again.  We need to REDUCE the nic grind.  OR Reduce the build costs.  As I have already pointed out in another thread.

A Billion Nic.  Think of it.  The man hours needed to farm a billion nic. at rates of 15 to 20 million an hour.  That's 50 Man hours.  That is a full time job for one week and 7 players can lose that in 1 battle out of 12 needed to flip a station.  See where I am going with this?  Now granted 7 players could reduce the work load down to 7.5 hours per player.  But still Most players after suffering that kind of defeat typically say, "Well, time to go back to something else."  I have seen it too many times.

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Re: Improved NPC AI

Ville wants easymode again, Syndic thinks his genius reverse-psychology crusade worked, macros will be harmed, everything is fine in Perpland \o/

Re: Improved NPC AI

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ville wants easymode again, Syndic thinks his genius reverse-psychology crusade worked, macros will be harmed, everything is fine in Perpland \o/

I just want a game I enjoy playing sad .  I am sorry if you think this easy mode Dev Zoom and I am sorry if you feel like I am trying to be lazy.  I want you to succeed.  I want US as a player base to enjoy your game and it pains me to see general chat slowly dropping off again.  And it pains me to know I as a player can do NOTHING about it except try to make suggestions.  I will stop posting feedback and suggestions from this point on as you think I only want to be lazy and have easy mode game play.  I am sorry it appears if this offended you.  I will stop posting.

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Re: Improved NPC AI

DEV Zoom wrote:

Ville wants easymode again, Syndic thinks his genius reverse-psychology crusade worked, macros will be harmed, everything is fine in Perpland \o/

+ 1 big_smile

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Improved NPC AI

Honestly I'm getting tired that the veterans' first advice to new players is that they should purchase 9 accounts and install 12 clients. And when we try to do something against this then "it's hurting the game" because you got used to grinding with one hand in the popcorn-bag, the other on the tv remote, while you're standing around with NPCs dropping like flies. /rant

62 (edited by Syndic 2014-07-30 18:57:32)

Re: Improved NPC AI

My genius is in advising people to deny you feedback and letting you dig your own grave with quality development.

Reverse-psychology implies I give a f*ck. lol

@ Ville;

See what I mean? Let Jerome be Jerome. wink

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Improved NPC AI

Syndic wrote:

My genius is in advising people to deny you feedback and letting you dig your own grave with quality development.

Reverse-psychology implies I give a f*ck. lol

@ Ville;

See what I mean? Let Jerome be Jerome. wink

I'm over it, I should have listened to you in TS, once again you were right.

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Re: Improved NPC AI

DEV Zoom wrote:

Honestly I'm getting tired that the veterans' first advice to new players is that they should purchase 9 accounts and install 12 clients. And when we try to do something against this then "it's hurting the game" because you got used to grinding with one hand in the popcorn-bag, the other on the tv remote, while you're standing around with NPCs dropping like flies. /rant

I am going to say this though, your doing it wrong.  This is what I mean:  "And when we try to do something against this then ".  You have the Wrong mind set.  You shouldn't be doing something against something.  You should be doing something to Enhance something. To Benefit something.  To reward something.  To Enjoy something.  I think you have gotten so wrapped up in 1s and 0s with the code that you have forgotten we as players play to enjoy a game.  If you want Less Grind fix it so 1 player can farm a mob spawn in his farming bot.  1 Heavy Mech is NOT cap stable.  1 Heavy Mech has difficulty killing NPCs by his *** self because every NPC has some forms of Ewar.  You want to REWARD solo play?  Fix the Problem,  BUFF ERPs that receive NPC damage, remove the heavily EWAR saturated Combat bots, Make Heavys Cap stable to fire guns for an extended period of time with the use of something.  We don't tell new players 9 accounts fix the problem.  YOU have designed group content, but there is NO group play except for pvp.  I in a Mesmer mk2 with great skills can not shoot NPCs at a 3rd star spawn in tellesis without being killed.  Once you fix that Mr. Dev Zoom, then go ahead and complain about multiboxing accounts for NPCs.  I'll be playing with my moogle in FFXIV.  Good day to you sir.

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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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Re: Improved NPC AI

And there you go, telling stupid how not to be stupid. lol

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Improved NPC AI

DEV Zoom wrote:

Honestly I'm getting tired that the veterans' first advice to new players is that they should purchase 9 accounts and install 12 clients. And when we try to do something against this then "it's hurting the game" because you got used to grinding with one hand in the popcorn-bag, the other on the tv remote, while you're standing around with NPCs dropping like flies. /rant


Zoom: When you go and farm a spawn for the 1000th time I can't blame anyone for not doing it as passively and as fast as possible. I have never nor have I heard any vet say to new players to buy 9 accounts though.I would tell them is their choice if they want multiple accounts, and if they ask I will still say it's to their advantage to do so because that's the way you designed the game.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Improved NPC AI

Celebro: I don't blame anyone for playing the game as optimally as possible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about mechanics that are exceptionally easy or lucrative compared to other parts of the game.

68 (edited by Celebro 2014-07-30 19:47:10)

Re: Improved NPC AI

DEV Zoom wrote:

Celebro: I don't blame anyone for playing the game as optimally as possible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about mechanics that are exceptionally easy or lucrative compared to other parts of the game.


I understand that, although what is hard mode for you: Farm for 8 hours for 10 minutes of PVP?

RIP PERPETUUM

69 (edited by Crepitus 2014-07-30 20:00:30)

Re: Improved NPC AI

Ville wrote:

Well back when we had red npcs we also had the ability to follow locked targets.  I just find this is going to be annoying trying to get my Remote sensor amps up, remote armor repair and energy transfer up, when all of a sudden npcs start targeting and ewaring.

And not to go into a rant here but you continue keep sticking it to Npc hunters.  First it was the follow/lock Nerf.  Then it was beta can no loot Nerf, now orange npc aggroing logi Nerf??  Grinding npcs for cash is not fun.  It is NOT a fun experience and if I am constantly flipping back and forth trying to reapply RSA,RAR, and ET.  While trying to kill a spawn, that sounds even more annoying than the previous grind fest!  And what pisses me off is your not promoting fun game play and reducing the yield of efficiency.  At the minimal give us something....  I want to see players grind less and pvp more.  An idea, is possibly raising the buy order amounts of plasma.  Hell here's a reason to take station raise the infinite buy order of plasma in betas from 325 to 525 per piece.  Just an idea.

Agreed, +Ten Thousand.

Ville wrote:

People need a reason to fight over a Beta station other than Epeen, incentivizing this through increased Plasma buy orders could be enough to fight over a station.

In 1 PVP battle a corp could lose a Billion nic. in PVP loses.  Players (as proven in the past) don't go through the grind to be able to chance it again.  We need to REDUCE the nic grind.  OR Reduce the build costs.  As I have already pointed out in another thread.

A Billion Nic.  Think of it.  The man hours needed to farm a billion nic. at rates of 15 to 20 million an hour.  That's 50 Man hours.  That is a full time job for one week and 7 players can lose that in 1 battle out of 12 needed to flip a station.  See where I am going with this?  Now granted 7 players could reduce the work load down to 7.5 hours per player.  But still Most players after suffering that kind of defeat typically say, "Well, time to go back to something else."  I have seen it too many times.

Agreed.  Again.  Something that I've repeatedly for literally years.  Re-iterated today.  You can find the same thing being said in 2011.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

70 (edited by Crepitus 2014-07-30 20:24:29)

Re: Improved NPC AI

DEV Zoom wrote:

Honestly I'm getting tired that the veterans' first advice to new players is that they should purchase 9 accounts and install 12 clients. And when we try to do something against this then "it's hurting the game" because you got used to grinding with one hand in the popcorn-bag, the other on the tv remote, while you're standing around with NPCs dropping like flies. /rant

So .... Your solution is make it worse and absolutely impossible to solo anything... 

The game design punishes lack of specialization.  Yet, people cannot be self-sufficient in anything with 1 account, sorry, you cannot force people to depend on each other.  I have ***ALWAYS SAID PEOPLE (AND CORPS) WILL FIND A WAY TO BE SELF-SUFFICIENT*** but you complain about multiple accounts and the obvious extra income generated from them? 

That doesn't even make sense.  At all.  You do know that if I only needed 1 combat pilot you'd lose 4 boosters right?  That would cut the $300 you got for my premium subs to $60.  I'm far from alone in that.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Improved NPC AI

DEV Zoom wrote:

Honestly I'm getting tired that the veterans' first advice to new players is that they should purchase 9 accounts and install 12 clients. And when we try to do something against this then "it's hurting the game" because you got used to grinding with one hand in the popcorn-bag, the other on the tv remote, while you're standing around with NPCs dropping like flies. /rant

This is a problem with your mechanics and this change won't fix it. You still can't do any reasonable spawn even with max skills solo, you still need a follow bot and all your doing is making it harder to duel box. The alternative they have is you is forcing people to either stick to 2 mil an hour spawns solo or try and get one of the other 50 people who play to help which is not how alpha works.

What you have to ask is why does this game need a follow bot and others don't and I would lay the problem with that at neutralisers door. You can't stay cap stable even if your running guns and erp without remote energy transfers if your using a local rep.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Improved NPC AI

Jita: I also think that NPC ewar/enwar is too much, and it also makes the difficulty jump between ranks too steep. Since with the mission revamp we also have to rework NPC spawns, improving this will be a part of the change.

73 (edited by Annihilator 2014-07-30 20:29:09)

Re: Improved NPC AI

Ville wrote:

I am going to say this though, your doing it wrong.  This is what I mean:  "And when we try to do something against this then ".  You have the Wrong mind set.  You shouldn't be doing something against something.  You should be doing something to Enhance something. To Benefit something.  To reward something.  To Enjoy something.  I think you have gotten so wrapped up in 1s and 0s with the code that you have forgotten we as players play to enjoy a game.  If you want Less Grind fix it so 1 player can farm a mob spawn in his farming bot.  1 Heavy Mech is NOT cap stable.  1 Heavy Mech has difficulty killing NPCs by his *** self because every NPC has some forms of Ewar.  You want to REWARD solo play?  Fix the Problem,  BUFF ERPs that receive NPC damage, remove the heavily EWAR saturated Combat bots, Make Heavys Cap stable to fire guns for an extended period of time with the use of something.  We don't tell new players 9 accounts fix the problem.  YOU have designed group content, but there is NO group play except for pvp.  I in a Mesmer mk2 with great skills can not shoot NPCs at a 3rd star spawn in tellesis without being killed.  Once you fix that Mr. Dev Zoom, then go ahead and complain about multiboxing accounts for NPCs.  I'll be playing with my moogle in FFXIV.  Good day to you sir.

you are using several arguments there that overly exaggerated and not true.
My heavy mechs are cap stable since forever - they are not stable standing still, taking hits from all sides, shooting and repairing at the same time.
If you have problems with EWAR, fit ECCM - according to your own propaganda that helps. Not all NPCs have EWAR. that was reduced after lots of forum tears long ago. You can focus your firepower on those since their names and equip has been the same for years... you should be able to list their equip in your dreams already.

If you cannot solo farm with a mesmer mk2 on a 3rd star spawn on tellesis, you must be doing something wrong.  Perhaps you ask Goffer or RonTek how they did something like that, even when NPCs had been red and the whole spawn attacked, not only those from the same spawner.

The only thing that makes "Farming" NPCs impossible solo for an extended period of time, is either your mental endurance of doing the same thing for hours like a macro, or the fact that you have to manually sort out loot every respawn to destroy unwanted t1 items or dropping all stuff in your field container without your current ammo.
Yet its the "farming" that is boring and drives away player. making it easer does solve nothing, except making it even less attractive (i have seen more potential player turned off by NAP NPCs...)

any change to the NPC AI needs to improve the FUN experience, not improve the macro grinding

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Improved NPC AI

I prefer to do my perp grinding while also playing a fun, well balanced game. Not my fault I need to load a whole other game to make that happen

Re: Improved NPC AI

DEV Zoom wrote:

Jita: I also think that NPC ewar/enwar is too much, and it also makes the difficulty jump between ranks too steep. Since with the mission revamp we also have to rework NPC spawns, improving this will be a part of the change.

So hold off on this change until that's done because your once again souring the milk for the babies who don't like leaving alpha and that's exactly the kind of player base we are suffering by not having. Bitter vets aplenty but the alpha dwellers who keep a game alive are leaving in droves.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."