Topic: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Just so this is not scattered around in various topics, here's what all gamma-dwellers need to know. Yes, we should have done this way earlier and I could list the reasons why we haven't, but that's not going to help us anymore now. Our goal is to provide a better gamma experience, that we can expand on without being hindered by the elephants in the room that are sky-high terrain walls and lagfest islands.

  • We're going to change terraforming with the aim to impose limits on the maximum slope you're allowed to do.

  • We're going to limit the number of buildings in a network with the use of a resource/usage system, much like it is with CPU/reactor in the case of robots and modules.

  • Unfortunately this is going to need a full gamma wipe, with reimbursements.

  • The wipe is currently slated about 3 weeks from now, around the end of the month, but this also depends on how testing of the new mechanics will go.

  • Details are still being worked out, I'll post them when they are settled.

  • We're approaching this very carefully since we don't want to arrive at the same state again in the future. This might result in less creative freedom at first, but we can expand from there again, with constant supervision on what's possible with the provided mechanics.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Ok great, I have 2 questions:

What would be the default location to move personal/corp assets from gamma?

Will I lose CTs if set on factory slots on gamma?

Forum Warrior and Reporter.
Dev Zoom-I agree with what Celebro said.

3 (edited by Burial 2014-02-03 21:09:23)

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Another big elephant, IMO, is the unrivaled protection that 12 terminals provide on an island. I would love some sort of feature that would provide similar protection with less islands.

4 (edited by Cassius 2014-02-03 21:11:30)

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Burial do you mean terminals instead of islands, correct?

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Thanks for the update zoom. I'll be logging in when its done or steam happens, whichever comes sooner. Really not much point in playing up to then.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

6 (edited by Cassius 2014-02-03 21:21:17)

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

DEV Zoom wrote:

Just so this is not scattered around in various topics, here's what all gamma-dwellers need to know. Yes, we should have done this way earlier and I could list the reasons why we haven't, but that's not going to help us anymore now. Our goal is to provide a better gamma experience, that we can expand on without being hindered by the elephants in the room that are sky-high terrain walls and lagfest islands.

  • We're going to change terraforming with the aim to impose limits on the maximum slope you're allowed to do.
    Can you allow sharp walls but limit the height?

  • We're going to limit the number of buildings in a network with the use of a resource/usage system, much like it is with CPU/reactor in the case of robots and modules.
    Will you have different classes of terminals?

  • Unfortunately this is going to need a full gamma wipe, with reimbursements.

  • The wipe is currently slated about 3 weeks from now, around the end of the month, but this also depends on how testing of the new mechanics will go.
    Will it be a two stage process, wipe first, then introduce new mechanics ... because I think any new mechanics will need a lot of testing

  • Details are still being worked out, I'll post them when they are settled.

  • We're approaching this very carefully since we don't want to arrive at the same state again in the future. This might result in less creative freedom at first, but we can expand from there again, with constant supervision on what's possible with the provided mechanics.

From the snippets of information discussed and released so far, I feel you may be going from overpowered to underpowered. I cannot see us the players properly testing any new mechanics in under a few months, at best.
Thanks for the update though and I'm lookng forward to more information being released.

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Cassius: with current mechanics of single tile terraforming you can build exactly the same walls - its just more difficult. I imagine that higher tier terminals will have more grid or whatever - the higher tech the base the better the defence. In terms of the wipe i would personally wipe everything and leave terraforming out completely until people can decide if gamma is worth it without it. Leave single tile terraforming on the test server while its tweaked and changed.

Zoom:

A really important thing you need to add is removing all mining spots within 1km of a base when its constructed. Without this people will:

1) build bases on mining spots and instadock meaning you cannot kill anyone who's awake.

2) build bases with defences on every colixium spot in the game - total control of colixium mode activated!

Also gamma needs some basic buffs to make it worthwhile to live and to pvp in:

1) Make all mk 2 require colixium

2) Move epi back to Gamma

3) Increase the strength of Auras

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Jita wrote:

Cassius: with current mechanics of single tile terraforming you can build exactly the same walls - its just more difficult. I imagine that higher tier terminals will have more grid or whatever - the higher tech the base the better the defence. In terms of the wipe i would personally wipe everything and leave terraforming out completely until people can decide if gamma is worth it without it. Leave single tile terraforming on the test server while its tweaked and changed.

Zoom:

A really important thing you need to add is removing all mining spots within 1km of a base when its constructed. Without this people will:

1) build bases on mining spots and instadock meaning you cannot kill anyone who's awake.

2) build bases with defences on every colixium spot in the game - total control of colixium mode activated!

Also gamma needs some basic buffs to make it worthwhile to live and to pvp in:

1) Make all mk 2 require colixium

2) Move epi back to Gamma

3) Increase the strength of Auras


I agree with you exactly on this ... but if slope is limited you will not be able to build the same walls as before. No sheer walls. I don't want the 800m monoliths, but a 100m wall could make a nice looking bases and make defensive terraforming much easier to breech (much better than the current deployable wall units by far imo)

Also, although I understand epi back on Gamma with new mechanics like this would work, I think it gives far greater benefits to keeping Betas relevant to the game so it should stay Beta only, if just for that reason only. Otherwise, Betas become as useless as before.

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Well it's just my opinion but beta should not be end game but mid game. Half loot, some risk, easy access but lower rewards. Gamma should be high risk full loot (as bases die) big red epi spawns that's harder to get too.

Leaving epi on beta REQUIRES beta access for everyone which isn't sandbox. The only reason to move it to beta was to increase pvp and get people from behind those walls that soon won't exist.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

As said we still have to work out the details, but I'll answer what I can:

Can you allow sharp walls but limit the height?

No, that would only eliminate the aestetic issue, not the actual problem of terrain being used as the primary defense method.

Will you have different classes of terminals?

The current 3 terminals will stay as they are (maybe some armor balancing), they will just get a resource pool that is increasingly larger as we go up in tiers. The same will be true for resource usage: higher tier buildings will use up more resources than lower ones.

Will it be a two stage process, wipe first, then introduce new mechanics ... because I think any new mechanics will need a lot of testing

We have to do at least some changes to the current mechanics because otherwise the wipe would have no point. But yes, for the first iteration this will probably be just the bare minimum that makes single-tile terraforming possible with a slope limit. After this, testing of new ideas and mechanics can be done on the testserver in the background.

A really important thing you need to add is removing all mining spots within 1km of a base when its constructed. Without this people will:
1) build bases on mining spots and instadock meaning you cannot kill anyone who's awake.
2) build bases with defences on every colixium spot in the game - total control of colixium mode activated!

I'm sure you're aware that mineral fields move around if they are depleted, so I don't quite understand the concern here.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

DEV Zoom wrote:

A really important thing you need to add is removing all mining spots within 1km of a base when its constructed. Without this people will:
1) build bases on mining spots and instadock meaning you cannot kill anyone who's awake.
2) build bases with defences on every colixium spot in the game - total control of colixium mode activated!

I'm sure you're aware that mineral fields move around if they are depleted, so I don't quite understand the concern here.

The concern is that it costs virtually nothing to drop a base and then move it when the mining spot is depleted. In this way mining becomes risk free on gamma. This is already done and is wrong. You put a base on top of the mining spot and then you can dock instantly with zero risk if enemies show up.

A change that moves mining spots from under bases will force mining parties to be exposed. This is the essence of pvp, having resource gathering associated with risk.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

DEV Zoom wrote:

A really important thing you need to add is removing all mining spots within 1km of a base when its constructed. Without this people will:
1) build bases on mining spots and instadock meaning you cannot kill anyone who's awake.
2) build bases with defences on every colixium spot in the game - total control of colixium mode activated!

I'm sure you're aware that mineral fields move around if they are depleted, so I don't quite understand the concern here.

Means miners are still invulnerable if they just spend a little time putting up the base.

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Jita wrote:

The concern is that it costs virtually nothing to drop a base and then move it when the mining spot is depleted. In this way mining becomes risk free on gamma. This is already done and is wrong. You put a base on top of the mining spot and then you can dock instantly with zero risk if enemies show up.

A change that moves mining spots from under bases will force mining parties to be exposed. This is the essence of pvp, having resource gathering associated with risk.

Seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, I mean what else would your terminal placement be based on if not natural defenses and nearby resources. I get the problem but I think this would need another solution, though I don't have anything for now.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

The concern is that it costs virtually nothing to drop a base and then move it when the mining spot is depleted. In this way mining becomes risk free on gamma. This is already done and is wrong. You put a base on top of the mining spot and then you can dock instantly with zero risk if enemies show up.

A change that moves mining spots from under bases will force mining parties to be exposed. This is the essence of pvp, having resource gathering associated with risk.

Seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, I mean what else would your terminal placement be based on if not natural defenses and nearby resources. I get the problem but I think this would need another solution, though I don't have anything for now.

Maybe make it return only 33% resources during deconstruction

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

I'm not saying it be a 5km away thing, just 1km giving you the chance of killing them.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Kokomut wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

The concern is that it costs virtually nothing to drop a base and then move it when the mining spot is depleted. In this way mining becomes risk free on gamma. This is already done and is wrong. You put a base on top of the mining spot and then you can dock instantly with zero risk if enemies show up.

A change that moves mining spots from under bases will force mining parties to be exposed. This is the essence of pvp, having resource gathering associated with risk.

Seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, I mean what else would your terminal placement be based on if not natural defenses and nearby resources. I get the problem but I think this would need another solution, though I don't have anything for now.

Maybe make it return only 33% resources during deconstruction

I was thinking of upping the cost but tbh you would need to make it prohibitive to not be worth it. Cost balancing doesn't really work as it just means you use it on the high ends and not the low.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Jita wrote:

I'm not saying it be a 5km away thing, just 1km giving you the chance of killing them.

Ok, I was thinking the removed fields would be regenerated randomly anywhere on the island because that's what our current system allows. I don't know whether moving them just around terminals like that would be possible, and I also smell a hint of exploiting by forcing regeneration into the desired spot by some strategic terminal placements.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

I'm not saying it be a 5km away thing, just 1km giving you the chance of killing them.

Ok, I was thinking the removed fields would be regenerated randomly anywhere on the island because that's what our current system allows. I don't know whether moving them just around terminals like that would be possible, and I also smell a hint of exploiting by forcing regeneration into the desired spot by some strategic terminal placements.

They would be removed and placed randomly but because you know that you would place your base 1.1km away.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Jita wrote:

They would be removed and placed randomly but because you know that you would place your base 1.1km away.

Well that's a good argument, we'll think about it.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

20 (edited by Burial 2014-02-03 23:26:31)

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

I agree with Jita that it is a problem but at the same time I wouldn't waste any development time here right now unless you plan to move Epriton back on Gammas or give some more use to Colixum. The riskier you make mining ABC minerals on Gamma the more reason it gives to just not mine them there.

Should Epriton be moved back to Gammas? That fully depends how open and roamable Gammas will be. If it's way better to mine them on Gamma then why bother on Betas at all?

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

No, obviously it is not an issue that is critical to the wipe/restart process and can be addressed later.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

22 (edited by Jita 2014-02-03 23:22:27)

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Burial wrote:

I agree with Jita that it is a problem but at the same time I wouldn't waste any development time here right now unless you plan to move Epriton back on Gammas or give some more use to Colixum. The riskier you make mining ABC minerals on Gamma the more reason it gives to just not mine them there.

Should Epriton be moved back to Gammas? That fully depends how open and roamable Gammas will be.

I think that comes down to a wider rebalance of the ABC minerals that needs to take place. IMO alpha mineral spawns should be 5m maximum. Get end game players and afk scarabs off alpha.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

23 (edited by Burial 2014-02-03 23:27:23)

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

That's a good idea, it should be brought up in the future.

24 (edited by Delcimus 2014-02-04 00:42:22)

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Zoom, thank you for the reply to my questions

I would like to point out that if terraforming was limited to 100 m vertical, it would still be used defensively (ie for LOS and preventing NPCs randomly walking into your base and vapourizing that hauling scarab that just undocked) while at the same time being far easier to breech when attacked. The 800 m walls were built because they offered the LOS superiority and required several hours to attempt to breech. A 100 m wall will look nice but will practically offer no more than a 15 minute delay for an attacking force. Hardly a strong defense.

And from an attackers point of view, allowing vertical cover walls is quite important for sieging bases ... Diminishining this would hinder attacking forces greatly.

I remember how terrible the wall structures were on Kent and how awful they look now on Beta, especially diagonally on slopes. I hope this isn't what you want us to use de facto on Gamma now.

Re: Incoming gamma changes and gamma-only wipe

Give us Nia style wall units and you can keep terraforming big_smile