1 (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2014-01-24 02:38:32)

Topic: Terraforming Changes

with all the discussion in the gamma ballancing over various topics i think its a good idea to split this from the rest.

first of all i think we need to find a way to keep and improve the "beacon terraforming" or at least the "plan terraforming". without this terraforming will be a pain and ppl will not realy be able to terraform anything "nice" this will be a major turn off and if we cant create something nice to our liking with decent tools then i think it might be better to remove terraforming all together. and i think this is not what we want. so the main goal should be to make this work. and maybe we can help with that process.

i had some time to think about it. so here some of my thoughts. of cource i am no software engineer and i have no insight of how things are coded atm.


Terraforming with plan for what reason?:
well i think its pretty clear that the purpose on that is for base building and not for base assault. so i see no problems if you have some limits in this to prevent unintended things from happening.

Block "plan terraforming" in the same area
one simple idea to prevent multible plan usage in one area is to simply not allow it.
lets say you create a plan, put a probe on it and fire the probe. the terrain will then move according as a whole towards the plan. to prevent interaction of 2 or more plans you simple cant activate a probe if their plan is overlapping with another one that has a "active" probe. for save keeping even add a 5 or 10 tile "phantom border" to the plans that are not allowed to touch while terraforming.
you can even add a visual effect like a beacon of light that might be visible over a few km on active terraforming probes to make it even more obvious why somebody migh get a error message and cant terraform there.

Volume of terraforming
i personaly never liked the way the terraforming worked. by simply moving up and down in a certain radius. i would prefer if the amount of terraforming per charge would be a fix volume. cant be too hard to make when you have a difference volume shown in the terrafroming plans.
this would allow relative exact planing how many changes you have to bring to complete a terraforming plan.

Slope terraforming:
now that we have slope limits i think it will eb very important to get a better slope/ramp tool for the editor.
at the moment the ramp tool is mor a bit of luck and multible repeat untill you get what you want.
my option would be more that you can define 2 lines by selecting 4 points (preferable with snap to grid)
with there 4 points you can define 2 lines which will function as base lines for your ramp. that way you can relatively easy create ramps with difined borders in various 3d angles and different base and top sizes. for example you can create a pyramid with this quite easy for what you would take hours with the tools we have atm.
other generic forms lik4e circles, ellipses, cones and partial forms of them might also be a very good idea.
a 6 point ramp tool for the use of a arc instead of a line as definition might also be a additional idea.
all of this are geonometrical forms and should be relatively easy to code as long as you dont stick with hungarian math wink.

and also a preview button would be nice before you apply the changes. so you can still move the single points and see the outcome. that way you can adjust without loosing all your definition points.


Single tile terraforming:
if we have problems with multible plans overlaping to generate unwanted slopes then we might have the same problems with single tile terraforming as well if two ppl do things close to each other. so do we need limitations here as well?

Permanent debugging / checking slopes:
to make sure that bad things will not happen and can be exploited by the players i think we need some underlaying debug/savety mechanism.
i think to determin the slopes of tiles might not be a problem. so what ever the code looks like that changes the terrain, you can also check the slopes of the affected tiles at every terraforming. if a slope is created that is unwanted then you can revert/block the terraforming and send a automated bugreport to the devs so they know something went wrong and there is something to fix.
unwanted slopes are above max slope in terms the tile was below that, or a in slope increase in terms of the tile already had more then max slope.


so far
zort

Re: Terraforming Changes

I didn't read all your post because I'm arrogant and think my views are more important but single time terraforming blows and beacon needs fixing. Otherwise its like trying to build a house with nothing but a shovel.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Terraforming Changes

Jita wrote:

I didn't read all your post because I'm arrogant and think my views are more important but single time terraforming blows and beacon needs fixing. Otherwise its like trying to build a house with nothing but a shovel.

+1

Thank *** God someone thinks exactly the way I do in this regard.  One of the best features in this game is the terraforming mechanic with beacons and plan. It's not the mechanic, its the freedom of use the players have, and the cheap cost of terraforming that have allowed god awful looking walls and defensive structures.

Is this a closed topic Zoom, because what I am reading is you have already decided to axe the beacons and focus on single tile. Huge Mistake. When I get some time I will try and make a plan that incorporate some basic laws for using the mechanics that will all but eliminate the ugly but still allow the beautiful, and the practical, using beacons.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Re: Terraforming Changes

It's not a closed topic and I am happy if you guys brainstorm about this, but right now we can't spend months to get beacon terraforming right. So we'll restart gamma without it and put it in again when we're 100% sure it won't screw it up again.

5 (edited by Gunner 2014-01-23 21:35:55)

Re: Terraforming Changes

Took the words out of my mouth.

.. and to add to that, as elitist and arrogant players that we are, we guarentee that we will break anything you put on the table.  We only do it to show you what the limitations are, not to make your life harder.

DEV Zoom wrote:

It's not a closed topic and I am happy if you guys brainstorm about this, but right now we can't spend months to get beacon terraforming right. So we'll restart gamma without it and put it in again when we're 100% sure it won't screw it up again.

6 (edited by Delcimus 2014-01-23 21:54:23)

Re: Terraforming Changes

DEV Zoom wrote:

It's not a closed topic and I am happy if you guys brainstorm about this, but right now we can't spend months to get beacon terraforming right. So we'll restart gamma without it and put it in again when we're 100% sure it won't screw it up again.

Thank you, and understood.

Edit ... Wtf? why did it change accounts for me to post this? I did not log Cass off and this account in ...

Re: Terraforming Changes

Gunner wrote:

Took the words out of my mouth.

.. and to add to that, as elitist and arrogant players that we are, we guarentee that we will break anything you put on the table.  We only do it to show you what the limitations are, not to make your life harder.

If that were the case, you would submit tickets and report bugs once you found them, instead of abusing them and exploiting them until the otherside finds out and reports it themselves.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Terraforming Changes

Shadowmine wrote:
Gunner wrote:

Took the words out of my mouth.

.. and to add to that, as elitist and arrogant players that we are, we guarentee that we will break anything you put on the table.  We only do it to show you what the limitations are, not to make your life harder.

If that were the case, you would submit tickets and report bugs once you found them, instead of abusing them and exploiting them until the otherside finds out and reports it themselves.

Its a intended mecanic until sombody abuses it, like walls and beacons.

+1 to topic

Re: Terraforming Changes

DEV Zoom wrote:

It's not a closed topic and I am happy if you guys brainstorm about this, but right now we can't spend months to get beacon terraforming right. So we'll restart gamma without it and put it in again when we're 100% sure it won't screw it up again.

So reset Gamma first, then think of solutions   ...act, then think.

I hope your solutions don't then require more resets, or make work done after a reset pointless or broken.

Good luck.

10 (edited by Burial 2014-01-24 18:07:32)

Re: Terraforming Changes

Reset needs to come either way, Rex. Getting it done before Steam is way better then trying to figure terraforming out and doing the reset after Steam when new people have already expanded on Gamma.

Re: Terraforming Changes

Burial wrote:

Reset needs to come either way, Rex. Getting it done before Steam is way better then trying to figure terraforming out and doing the reset after Steam when new people have already expanded on Gamma.

Before Steam I can agree. And in general I welcome a Gamma change and reset. I just don't like the idea of mass Dev transporting of assets to Alpha or anywhere, really.

I find it very interesting that you seem so eager to see it done sooner than later.

12 (edited by Cassius 2014-01-24 21:57:16)

Re: Terraforming Changes

Rage Rex wrote:
Burial wrote:

Reset needs to come either way, Rex. Getting it done before Steam is way better then trying to figure terraforming out and doing the reset after Steam when new people have already expanded on Gamma.

Before Steam I can agree. And in general I welcome a Gamma change and reset. I just don't like the idea of mass Dev transporting of assets to Alpha or anywhere, really.

I find it very interesting that you seem so eager to see it done sooner than later.

All women and children have been moved to safe Alphas, along with our gold. All defense reconfigurations are essentially done, combats are ready. Any deconning required for the reconfig is done, so the Devs aint saving us work, if that what you're implying. Imi and Bergers will stand until the wipe.

Back on topics ...

I posted in the balance thread but Ronon had an excellent idea, basically limit terraforming to -50m to +50m from the original tile.

I think this is an excellent idea, actually.

Re: Terraforming Changes

one more thing about terraforming that always bothered me.

to build a nice base you make a plan and terraform it. after that you put some buildings down.
some time passes and the base getts attacks. the enemy uses manual terraforming to screw up your terraforming. lets say you defeated the attacker and the war is over. now you want to restore your base to former glory.
but the manual terraformer can operate way closer to buildings then the becons can. and the manual terraformer can not restore your plan or anywere near that.

so basic rule that should apply:
a beacon terraformer should be able to undo the things a manual has done. even without deconstruction all the buildings in range first.

14

Re: Terraforming Changes

Zoom I can do anything with manuals that i can with beacons... the only difference is the [time & Nic] it takes.

I think we can brainstorm for years about what we want for gamma and Terraforming but i think we need to get a clear cut image of what the Devs want for gamma so we can base our ideas and improvements upon that. So far all I have heard reallyis "we didnt think players would go that far" ... Please understand that if something can be done it will be done ...

Its simple really if you allow players to change the landscape of gamma islands in any way they will take it to its extreme. I really hate to say it but if your not ready to release gamma with new rules for terraofrming then maybe you should just close gamma until you guys are ready ...

To spend another year or more rebuilding gamma after this reset then to have another game changing patch adding in new rules terraforming will effectively be 2 wipes. Terraforming is an awesome tool. it really has no problems as it stands ... the problem is the robots and equipment we are currently limited to does not match the power of terraforming.

My best suggestion to you is develop new robots and modules that are designed to assault gamma bases. You are going to have to do this sooner or later in order for gamma to work long term there is no way around it.

*** Permanently close gamma until there is enough development to support it ~~ NEW Bots ... NEW Mods etc .... Made to assault gamma islands and gamma defenses.

DEV Zoom wrote:

It's not a closed topic and I am happy if you guys brainstorm about this, but right now we can't spend months to get beacon terraforming right. So we'll restart gamma without it and put it in again when we're 100% sure it won't screw it up again.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Terraforming Changes

Tux wrote:

... the problem is the robots and equipment we are currently limited to does not match the power of terraforming.

My best suggestion to you is develop new robots and modules that are designed to assault gamma bases. You are going to have to do this sooner or later in order for gamma to work long term there is no way around it.

Change your terraforming or whatever, but seriously, you guys need some new bots and toys. If every "balance" is a nerf or a reset, just throw in the towel now and save us from a long, agonizing death. There are other games to invest my time in...

Re: Terraforming Changes

So the plan is to remove beacon terraforming for the time being, AND to restrict the manual terraforming ability to only a certain slope? Correct? Just for clarification at this moment...

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Terraforming Changes

Dev Shadowmine wrote:

So the plan is to remove beacon terraforming for the time being, AND to restrict the manual terraforming ability to only a certain slope? Correct? Just for clarification at this moment...

You tell us what the plan is.

Re: Terraforming Changes

Rex, if some isolated game mechanic is too OP, it's a lot easier to nerf it than buff everything around it. Don't see much difference between nerfing and buffing, one inadvertently also cause the other.

Re: Terraforming Changes

Burial wrote:

Rex, if some isolated game mechanic is too OP, it's a lot easier to nerf it than buff everything around it. Don't see much difference between nerfing and buffing, one inadvertently also cause the other.

Just another example of your narrow-mindedness

20 (edited by Gooma 2014-01-31 15:20:33)

Re: Terraforming Changes

So Zooms great idea is to wipe gamma, then figure out terraforming because you cant come up with a good solution yet. I can understand that its not like gamma has been up for over a year or anything..wait..  Any ways like Rage said i hope when you "figure" terraforming out, it is not necessary to wipe gamma again. Also since there will be no more tower's of e-peen on gamma. Are you going to reinstate Epi on gamma?

21 (edited by Celebro 2014-01-31 17:00:31)

Re: Terraforming Changes

Burial wrote:

Rex, if some isolated game mechanic is too OP, it's a lot easier to nerf it than buff everything around it. Don't see much difference between nerfing and buffing, one inadvertently also cause the other.

Burial: Either buffing or nerfing, the rules still changes meaning what you planned on doing may not be a viable plan, so it's all ends up with never ending balancing decisions, and players are not sure how to plan defence for the unexpected.

Edit: I would rather have the proper 'tools' to balance what we have than change it . Give new bots/equipment can really lift this game up, let the players find the balance giving them more options to do so. Ofc this is all in an ideal world were time o money is not an issue, so the next best thing is make quick changes now, to offset the lack of tools needed.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Terraforming Changes

I agree with you here Celebro. I only typed it because "... If every "balance" is a nerf or a reset... "

Re: Terraforming Changes

Only terraforming beacon charges should by 30000 or 300000 a piece.  Would help this problem.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Terraforming Changes

Nic that is

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Terraforming Changes

It was either nic, or first born child.   

I wasn't quite sure, the clarification is appreciated.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13