Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Shadowmine wrote:

Sure, remove it completely. it still only really affects pvp. But if it makes you feel better Gunner, I will drive each miner to the field separately. It will add 10 minutes to the time it takes me to clear a mineral field.

That Follow nerf will NOT affect mining only illustrates my point that it's not a fairly targeted nerf to Multi-account users.

Shadowmine wrote:

Its not about stopping multi account users, its about reducing the competitive advantage gap of single and multi acct users. And if you think this is also the solution to nerfing multi acct industrials, I am all for it.

My biggest gripe about this whole nerf is that no problem has been clearly identified. Pay2win and mutli-accounts are a very wide arena for arguing what is what. You muddle it even more by attempting to distinguish "stopping" from "reducing competitiveness"

Talk about a cloud of fuzzy muck.

You like your multi miners because you do. You don't like Follow for whatever reason so you argue against it in any way you can. You have no good reason, certainly no fair reason.

352 (edited by Burial 2014-01-22 01:21:50)

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Rex, I think the problem is very clearly outlined: Using follow bots in PVP. Unfair advantage to anyone not using it.

Why do you keep making it harder and harder?

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Burial, I think the problem is very clearly outlined: Using multiple miner accounts in industry. Unfair advantage to anyone not using it.

Why do you keep making it harder and harder?

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

And Zoom, if you go through with this change and decide to SINGLE OUT PVP muti-account users then I would like a reset on this Character Account.

Rage Rex can Rage Mine as my third Industry Account

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

When you come up with a good way to reduce the competitive industrial advantage of multi acct users as compared to single acct user. let me know. I will support you. But until then, you not coming up with a good idea how to do so, is not a valid reason to not balance and fix the problems we can.

The more you guys struggle, the more I enjoy it. Just sit back, relax, and take it. big_smile

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Lemon: you're talking about the 5% of multiaccounters who actually know about 3rd party apps, while we're aiming at the 95% who multiaccount because the game itself provides an easy mechanic to do it.

357 (edited by Lemon 2014-01-22 02:49:10)

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

DEV Zoom wrote:

Lemon: you're talking about the 5% of multiaccounters who actually know about 3rd party apps, while we're aiming at the 95% who multiaccount because the game itself provides an easy mechanic to do it.

The amount of multi accouters used to be 5-10% of Perpetuum, the light client and affordable subscription didnt help slow that fire. I started at 1 account by month 1 i was at 2 and by month 3 I had 6.

My intent is not to cry wolf but simply show the good and bad in order to help you be prepared.
~~~

Here is a MultiBox Example and this will not be prevented from these changes.

Our side is 15 bots-2 Single account players equals 13 bots played across 7 people, all of which are dynamically changing who they support and their actions as the fight goes on.

Then enemy is 28~ at most seen in force, I cant comment on account/player relations.  The change that is going in will only prevent the 'mild' version of this.

Intended? The greatest foe to multi-boxing in PvP you have is your spotty connection nodes to the US, thaose d/c's are a majority of my mutli-box deaths.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Lemon wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Lemon: you're talking about the 5% of multiaccounters who actually know about 3rd party apps, while we're aiming at the 95% who multiaccount because the game itself provides an easy mechanic to do it.

The amount of multi accouters used to be 5-10% of Perpetuum, the light client and affordable subscription didnt help slow that fire. I started at 1 account by month 1 i was at 2 and by month 3 I had 6.

My intent is not to cry wolf but simply show the good and bad in order to help you be prepared.
~~~

Here is a MultiBox Example and this will not be prevented from these changes.

Our side is 15 bots-2 Single account players equals 13 bots played across 7 people, all of which are dynamically changing who they support and their actions as the fight goes on.

Then enemy is 28~ at most seen in force, I cant comment on account/player relations.  The change that is going in will only prevent the 'mild' version of this.

Intended? The greatest foe to multi-boxing in PvP you have is your spotty connection nodes to the US, thaose d/c's are a majority of my mutli-box deaths.

Great, so you are on board with fixing the "mild" version of this, and we will continue our efforts on lessening the multi acct advantage in the future.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Is it a done-deal that followbot will be nerfed? or is it still undecided?

360 (edited by Lemon 2014-01-23 02:00:17)

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Shadowmine wrote:

Great, so you are on board with fixing the "mild" version of this, and we will continue our efforts on lessening the multi acct advantage in the future.

No I was onboard and actively testing and helping try and solve this problem the first 5 times it was brought up.

I stopped caring once the EULA was as concrete as wet-paper and this multi-boxing account issue became one of the 'lesser' evils I had to deal with. 

@Zoom

What are you honestly going to do as far as 'mechanic' changes. As far as I have seen nothing more than 5 mins of brain-power is needed with out installing anything else to already break your 'fix'.

Talking about this has probably done more damage than this 'fix'

I am ALL for FIXING the multiaccounts but doing it right.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

@ shadow

Industrial account users and transporters use the follow mechanic to make their day to day activities more efficient.

What effiecient means is more productive by wasting less time messing with moving 3 4 5 bots around which is not easy to do for most people.

So, lets say a mega miner that uses 5 mining accounts can greatly increase his efficiency moving about with all bots on follow.

just a simple example

If cant understand why or how that compares to other activities, then ill never be able to teach you.



Fair game mechanics changes for all players!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Gunner, heres the deal.

Removing the approach command while flagged will DIRECTLY reduce the competitive advantage of multi acct pvper over single acct users. (The wholepoint of this thread)

Removing the approach command for industrial multi acct users DOES NOT directly reduce the competitive advantage between multi and single acct industrials.

If I drive 3 mining accts and sit them  on a field, it adds maybe 5 minutes time to get to the field. But once they are there, not having the approach command does nothing to reduce the competitive advantage gap. You then just empty your can with 1 scarab as you mine. Doesn't even affect my hauling.

So why would you remove a useful command in non pvp situations that really doesn't solve the problem at hand?

And still this isn't about removing multiple accts. Why in the hell would a game developer want to tell people to not give then more money? The point is to allow people to have as many accts as they want. But to not allow those that do have multiple accts to have such an advantage as to make the single acct player unable to be competitive.

In the case of industry, having one acct just means you need to spend 3 times as much time mining to be competitive as a guy with 3 accts. Actually not an impossible task, but one you would expect.

In the case of PVP, however. 1 acct cant just spend more time pvping to reduce the competitive advantage gap of multi acct users. So since you cant even the advantage, you need to make it MORE difficult for the multi acct PVPer. You are not removing the ability to use multiple pvp accts, just making it a LITTLE more difficult to do so is all.

I don't see any reason to not remove the approach command to flagged targets, tbh.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

363

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Shadowmine wrote:

I don't see any reason to not remove the approach command to flagged targets, tbh.

That the fix method zoom confirmed?

My normal 3 Account chain goes Lemon>Repairbot>Nexusbot in follow order. This is done intentionally to keep him a good 100m~ away from Lemon. In order to keep doing currently do all I do is rotate to Lemon>Nexusbot>Repairbot as my bot chain. To be fair in fleet engagements 9/10 times the majority of the 'followbots' track 1-3 people, this is for 20+ dudes.

I could go either way on 'multi-boxing' but I am gravely against 3rd party tools. On that note I will give it up entirely to ensure no 3rd party tools.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Is the proposed fix it remove Approach to flagged targets? Or locked targets?

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Proposed fix is disabling ability to follow PVP flagged people.

366 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-01-23 12:07:41)

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

... no point wasting my breath. Go *** up your game some more and appease this mass of ewar haters

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

The fix is disabling follow for PvP flagged robots AND locked targets. And this has nothing to do with normal ewar usage.

368

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

DEV Zoom wrote:

The fix is disabling follow for PvP flagged robots AND locked targets. And this has nothing to do with normal ewar usage.

Ok sounds like we are making progress.

Now if I am PvP flagged approach becomes disabled.

If I lock my approached target it disables approach.

I would look to add a 3rd rule that has to do with my own flag or my targets flag maybe even combat status to also disableapproach.
This rule prevents nexusbot follow abuse

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Checking PvP flag could work both ways, yes.

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

It must be coincidence that everyone against these changes, are the ones who abuse the follow command in PVP the most.

RIP PERPETUUM

371 (edited by Lemon 2014-01-23 17:53:58)

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Celebro wrote:

It must be coincidence that everyone against these changes, are the ones who abuse the follow command in PVP the most.

I started this game as a ignorent theme park player. By 3 months in I was in 4 corps with officers privlages and full bank access in 3. I also went from 1 to 6 accounts.

I started multiboxing against 62nd during the US tz once I had to few allies to fill my tackle and dps roles.

I learned spying from Styx and mutlinaccounting for PvP off them as well.

I will never forget the two battle I was fighting my self as fc for both forces in one ts and another vent.

you the player are only limited by your imagination and persistence. I stopped spying when Styx was banned

edit: I don't bandwagon I simply adapted to overcome my enemy who equally bent and even broke more rules to win

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

372 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-01-23 18:00:33)

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Celebro wrote:

It must be coincidence that everyone against these changes, are the ones who abuse the follow command in PVP the most.

This "abuse" you speak of, please define it and distinguish it from other types of multi-account usage.

I still don't see what the problem is. If i decide to risk two bots then i can lose twice as much. This will be such a non-issue with real population. Sandbox like this will always thrive with muti-account users. You that don't like it live in a dream world if you think you will ever 'level' the playing field with one-account-one-person. Dream on...

And don't tell me about 'limiting' versus 'stopping' ...it only reveals your own playstyle bias.

373 (edited by Celebro 2014-01-23 18:54:50)

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Rage Rex wrote:
Celebro wrote:

It must be coincidence that everyone against these changes, are the ones who abuse the follow command in PVP the most.

This "abuse" you speak of, please define it and distinguish it from other types of multi-account usage.

I still don't see what the problem is. If i decide to risk two bots then i can lose twice as much. This will be such a non-issue with real population. Sandbox like this will always thrive with muti-account users. You that don't like it live in a dream world if you think you will ever 'level' the playing field with one-account-one-person. Dream on...

I will define the abuse as locking a target whilst on follow to provide superior range, superior tank and even better DPS as you don't need to sacrifice head slots for Amps.

Other types of multi account usage does not apply as it covers the same roles 2x miners is better than one, same as 2x dps bots is better than one that's fine. The DPS+ support role+ewar roles covering all bases for one player is what is broken, its not so much the issue about advantage only, it also deprives other players of a specialized role,as you already have all of specializations covered.

Industry roles: no matter how many you have is not the means to and end, PVP is, having 5 miners won't make you mine any safer on beta.

RIP PERPETUUM

374 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-01-23 19:24:40)

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Celebro wrote:

I will define the abuse as locking a target whilst on follow to provide superior range, superior tank and even better DPS as you don't need to sacrifice head slots for Amps.

Celebro, I know you're a thoughtful person. Yet I simply disagree with you on this issue.

Having superior range, superior tank, and better DPS come from mods designed to do exactly that. If you do not like the extra head slot access you from having someone RSA you versus use your own Sensor Amps, then seek a nerf to RSAs. If you do not like the extra repair you get from remote reps, then seek a nerf to remote reps. If you do not like the NEXUS effects to armor, damage, ewar range etc, then seek a nerf to NEXUS effects.

I've essentially been saying that this Follow nerf is primarily an attack on ewar range--the main complaint of the month--which some want to nerf directly but cannot convince Zoom to do so. Nerfing Follow is next best target.

The RATIONALE for nerfing Follow lies in fuzzy descriptions of 'abuse' and 'play2win' multi-account usage, NOT the effectiveness of other modules. Arguments about 'competitiveness' abound against multiple bots on field of PvP but only focus on the small NICHE of Follow usage. There are 100 ways to gain an advantage from having multiple accounts both in PvP and in industry. I simply argue that it is DISCRIMINATION of one muti-account advantage seeking play-style while ignoring 100s or other multi-account seeking play-style advantages.

Very simply, its NOT a FAIR approach to limit ONLY ONE type of multi-account usage while ignoring the 100s of others, especially those in industry where the true power of muti-account usage lies..

And the argument about Follow being a First Step in diminishing multi-account usage is a LIE. People like their own variations of advantages they get from using multiple accounts and will seek any opportunity to diminish the advantages other use.

But people don't see this Fairness argument. So I blow wind over their heads...

Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

how about a required deployable structure with a radius for the logi?   A sort of nanbot hive with a limited range. It would work more like a nexus bonus. The robots arms are to target the hive and the benefit is for the bots in that area.   Now a pvp fight has a fixed position, they leave the aoe and they loose the benefit of the logi.  as the fight gains ground the logi has to pick up and move the hive.  A player isn't going to alt tab, manage the deployed structure and move it for redeployment while his pvp bot sits there taking damage.  The hive should be targetable.  This implements a lot of skill on the logi knowing when and where to move the hive without getting himself or the deployed structure destroyed.