Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Jita wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:

Anyone here think that this topic would be so actively posted if you guys had more people than us and even with spark teleport we couldn't bring enough to defeat you? But alas, that's not the case. We have more so we have another 40 pages of Spark teleport discussion to look forward to....

I'd be interested to hear you explain why the change would help us win fights. It wouldn't. It would only make defending game spanning swathes of territory harder.

This is how it should be.

It would help win by repairing a broken mechanic that allows the defender to wait until the attack is underway before deploying troops; or to instantly redeploy troops that were incorrectly or tricked into being sent to the wrong location. Resulting in attackers ALWAYS needing to defeat the entire defending force.

tl;dr - yeah, what jita said

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Martha Stuart wrote:
Estamel Tharch0n wrote:
Martha Stuart wrote:

This is terrible argument.  No, new player's shouldn't get to control beta if "They so desire".  Beta is only for those who can take it.  Beta and Gamma mechanics are not for a new players, this is end game content.  If new players want access to beta and gamma, they either join an existing corp, or make an agreement with an existing corp.  Other than that, they build up on Alpha until they can take and hold a beta/gamma.


Who are u to decide who can take what???

The current game mechanics does not let any one take betas.....
And ur not  the one to tell palyers they are not skilled smart or old enught to have what the game offers

Who are we to decide?  We are the ones who control them.  If you can take one, then you deserve one.  If you can't, you don't.  Its pretty simple.


thank you for clarifying problem.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Sparks are broken
Nia is a small world because of sparks
Because Nia is a small world, there is only room for 2 real sides
If one side becomes twice the size of the other -> then that side will dominate all betas

Welcome to Perpetuum 2013

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Martha Stuart wrote:

Who are we to decide?  We are the ones who control them.  If you can take one, then you deserve one.  If you can't, you don't.  Its pretty simple.

I like this quote, it highlights what the other side misses in this whole issue....

the problem is, is that once a side attains the power to take one outpost, since the world is so small, he now can take all the rest.

It's a very simple formula, for a large alliance....
-without sparks -> it's difficult to hold more than 3 or 4 outposts
-with sparks -> it is easy to hold all outposts

All you need is the force to roll one outpost, then it's one-click-teleport, rinse and repeat, now we own all outposts.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

80 (edited by Shadowmine 2013-11-13 22:04:54)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … teleports/

Edit: Please read all of that ^, and if you still feel like repeating the same things over and over again, THEN make a post here.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Mongolia Jones wrote:

All you need is the force to roll one outpost, then it's one-click-teleport, rinse and repeat, now we own all outposts.

I want to highlight this as its the nub of the problem.

This is supposed to be balanced by logistical difficulty. Currently it isn't.

The reason the devs didn't hard code in teleports that instalink everywhere is to give this balance.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

So if everything you said is correct and true, we shouldn't be able to take over Iisetsu and Laosura, right? I mean, you will have a SpT advantage there and that will be not a problem for you to defend?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Line wrote:

So if everything you said is correct and true, we shouldn't be able to take over Iisetsu and Laosura, right? I mean, you will have a SpT advantage there and that will be not a problem for you to defend?


So ur saying u will SPT to asintec B insted that way u still whont use sparking to take those ilands?

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:
Line wrote:

So if everything you said is correct and true, we shouldn't be able to take over Iisetsu and Laosura, right? I mean, you will have a SpT advantage there and that will be not a problem for you to defend?


So ur saying u will SPT to asintec B insted that way u still whont use sparking to take those ilands?

Why? I could use tele beacons, maybe some interzones to jump directly from Shinjalar. Or that will be unfair towards you too?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Line wrote:
Estamel Tharch0n wrote:
Line wrote:

So if everything you said is correct and true, we shouldn't be able to take over Iisetsu and Laosura, right? I mean, you will have a SpT advantage there and that will be not a problem for you to defend?


So ur saying u will SPT to asintec B insted that way u still whont use sparking to take those ilands?

Why? I could use tele beacons, maybe some interzones to jump directly from Shinjalar. Or that will be unfair towards you too?


So are u going to live and base ur entire alliance out of shinj?  or use sparking once again when a sap comes out????

Do u not get my point yet?

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

So are u going to live and base ur entire alliance out of shinj?  or use sparking once again when a sap comes out????

Do u not get my point yet?

I got your point pretty clear, that's why I'm asking. Again: in case of Iisetsu and Laosura - we shouldn't be able to take over them, taking into account that you as defenders are going to have SpT advantage there? Answer this question please.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Line wrote:
Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

So are u going to live and base ur entire alliance out of shinj?  or use sparking once again when a sap comes out????

Do u not get my point yet?

I got your point pretty clear, that's why I'm asking. Again: in case of Iisetsu and Laosura - we shouldn't be able to take over them, taking into account that you as defenders are going to have SpT advantage there? Answer this question please.



Spark advantage comes in to play when YOU guys are active on the iland and trying to do stuff other than comming in whit a hughe blob fleet that sparked in from Asintec B just to take the SAP. 
It also comes in to play when some one at the same time tryes to take a outpost the current dominating blob will just spark there and deffend that to whit out much effort to hold it...

Currently beta mechanics only allows the BIGEST blob to hold them as evry one else said pretty much king off the hill game paly right now............

Do u think 1-2 corps shuld hold all beta outposts? is this good gameplay? sparking is broken to hell.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

Spark advantage comes in to play when YOU guys are active on the iland and trying to do stuff other than comming in whit a hughe blob fleet that sparked in from Asintec B just to take the SAP. 
It also comes in to play when some one at the same time tryes to take a outpost the current dominating blob will just spark there and deffend that to whit out much effort to hold it...

Currently beta mechanics only allows the BIGEST blob to hold them as evry one else said pretty much king off the hill game paly right now............

Do u think 1-2 corps shuld hold all beta outposts? is this good gameplay? sparking is broken to hell.

If you want something, you should be strong enough to get that, noone will give you something just for your cute eyes. But you didn't answered the question. YES or NO?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Its a stupid question and misses the whole point line. With sufficient preperation a bigger force can take anywhere. Sparks reduces the effort making you able to take anywhere.

A better question would be without sparks would you successfully defend five islands? I think the answer is no.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Jita wrote:

Its a stupid question and misses the whole point line. With sufficient preperation a bigger force can take anywhere. Sparks reduces the effort making you able to take anywhere.

A better question would be without sparks would you successfully defend five islands? I think the answer is no.

Did you ever tried to attack all the OP's on all the islands at the same time? No. Did you ever tried to attack at least 2 OP's at the same time? No. Trick is, that any time you're trying to attack, we are defending just one OP at one time. Ownins OP's at 5 islands and defending them all - it's not the same. Domhalarn campaign showed that pretty nice - you successfully took Danarchov SAP while we were defending SAP on Domhalarn.

That's kinda the basics. If your enemy owns too much, attack at several points, force him to choose which one is more important or enjoy his forces separated and weakened. There is nothing to do with SpT, it doesn't duplicate our forces. If there is 10 of our bots against your 6 on Heydelhorn, there will be the same 10 on Koykili, not another 10. So every time your forces just aren't strong enough.

Bring more friends, improve yourself, and you will win, SpT or not.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Line wrote:
Jita wrote:

Its a stupid question and misses the whole point line. With sufficient preperation a bigger force can take anywhere. Sparks reduces the effort making you able to take anywhere.

A better question would be without sparks would you successfully defend five islands? I think the answer is no.

Did you ever tried to attack all the OP's on all the islands at the same time? No. Did you ever tried to attack at least 2 OP's at the same time? No. Trick is, that any time you're trying to attack, we are defending just one OP at one time. Ownins OP's at 5 islands and defending them all - it's not the same. Domhalarn campaign showed that pretty nice - you successfully took Danarchov SAP while we were defending SAP on Domhalarn.

That's kinda the basics. If your enemy owns too much, attack at several points, force him to choose which one is more important or enjoy his forces separated and weakened. There is nothing to do with SpT, it doesn't duplicate our forces. If there is 10 of our bots against your 6 on Heydelhorn, there will be the same 10 on Koykili, not another 10. So every time your forces just aren't strong enough.

Bring more friends, improve yourself, and you will win, SpT or not.

Im sorry but SAPs dont come upp at the same times.......

They have a suposed random 8-16h cool down witch is enught to move a force to the next comming SAP whit sparks.   U can even deffend 2 outpost whit spark even if the sap came out at the same time all u need is detectors and ur fleet sitting in the outpost redy to spark to were ever the hostiles are at.

All u need is 1 outpost to shutdown a entire iland and or conquer it whit sparking.  Evry one has sparks in TMB, ASINTEC B, ICB   Witch has shrunk the world to a penut and kicked the game way out of balance.

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Line wrote:
Jita wrote:

Its a stupid question and misses the whole point line. With sufficient preperation a bigger force can take anywhere. Sparks reduces the effort making you able to take anywhere.

A better question would be without sparks would you successfully defend five islands? I think the answer is no.

Did you ever tried to attack all the OP's on all the islands at the same time? No. Did you ever tried to attack at least 2 OP's at the same time? No. Trick is, that any time you're trying to attack, we are defending just one OP at one time. Ownins OP's at 5 islands and defending them all - it's not the same. Domhalarn campaign showed that pretty nice - you successfully took Danarchov SAP while we were defending SAP on Domhalarn.

That's kinda the basics. If your enemy owns too much, attack at several points, force him to choose which one is more important or enjoy his forces separated and weakened. There is nothing to do with SpT, it doesn't duplicate our forces. If there is 10 of our bots against your 6 on Heydelhorn, there will be the same 10 on Koykili, not another 10. So every time your forces just aren't strong enough.

Bring more friends, improve yourself, and you will win, SpT or not.


You also know once u start lossing u lose evry thing not just what u had to much off right?

Its bad bad bad mechanic  this isnt world of tanks whit 2 sides shoting at each other.

horrible KING OF THE HILL game play................................................

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

Im sorry but SAPs dont come upp at the same times.......

Then why are you saying that we are defending ALL the SAPs with SpT? Again, we are defending just one SAP at one time, exactly because of random SAP times.

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

U can even deffend 2 outpost whit spark even if the sap came out at the same time all u need is detectors and ur fleet sitting in the outpost redy to spark to were ever the hostiles are at.

No we don't, and Domhalarn campaign showed that. Again, we were defending only most important SAP which resulted in you successfully took other one.

And there is another example. If 2 SAPs are up at the same island at the same time, split up. Show a half of your forces on one SAP, distract our fleet good enough, then let the second half complete the other SAP. Even if we split our fleet too, each half of your fleet will need to deal with much lesser forces. Divide et Impera.

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

All u need is 1 outpost to shutdown a entire iland and or conquer it whit sparking.  Evry one has sparks in TMB, ASINTEC B, ICB   Witch has shrunk the world to a penut and kicked the game way out of balance.

Everyone can set SpT on ABT, ICSB and TMB without any restrictions. By your logic, that should mean that they should be able to conquer all the OPs on that island, but that doesn't happens. Why so?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Line wrote:
Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

Im sorry but SAPs dont come upp at the same times.......

Then why are you saying that we are defending ALL the SAPs with SpT? Again, we are defending just one SAP at one time, exactly because of random SAP times.

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

U can even deffend 2 outpost whit spark even if the sap came out at the same time all u need is detectors and ur fleet sitting in the outpost redy to spark to were ever the hostiles are at.

No we don't, and Domhalarn campaign showed that. Again, we were defending only most important SAP which resulted in you successfully took other one.

And there is another example. If 2 SAPs are up at the same island at the same time, split up. Show a half of your forces on one SAP, distract our fleet good enough, then let the second half complete the other SAP. Even if we split our fleet too, each half of your fleet will need to deal with much lesser forces. Divide et Impera.

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

All u need is 1 outpost to shutdown a entire iland and or conquer it whit sparking.  Evry one has sparks in TMB, ASINTEC B, ICB   Witch has shrunk the world to a penut and kicked the game way out of balance.

Everyone can set SpT on ABT, ICSB and TMB without any restrictions. By your logic, that should mean that they should be able to conquer all the OPs on that island, but that doesn't happens. Why so?


I relly dont think ur understanding what it is im saying.

U are deffending 1 SAP  and sparking in to the next one before it comes up  u stashed lots of stuff on all ilands u dont have to move stuff in there.

No one saying they are stronger than your big blob thats diffrent.  we are saying 1 corp shuld not hold all ilands safely because of insta sparks to w/e there is a sap up and yes  u guys have and are sparking to evry sap that goes up in the game its pretty obv......

95 (edited by Line 2013-11-14 15:50:27)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

I relly dont think ur understanding what it is im saying.

U are deffending 1 SAP  and sparking in to the next one before it comes up  u stashed lots of stuff on all ilands u dont have to move stuff in there.

That's not 2 SAPs. That's 1 SAP and 1 SAP. It's not the same.

And still, there is 10 ppl at Sap 1 and the same 10 ppl at SAP 2, noone added due to SpT. If you can't deal with us at Heydelhorn, you will be unable to deal with us at Nauwy. So all you're trying to achieve - is not letting us to get at Nauwy in time, evading a fight completely.

Should anyone really get something without a fight? It's not a Barbie Online, you know.

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

No one saying they are stronger than your big blob thats diffrent.  we are saying 1 corp shuld not hold all ilands safely because of insta sparks to w/e there is a sap up and yes  u guys have and are sparking to evry sap that goes up in the game its pretty obv......

But there is no such single corp that holds even a single islands. Where do you see that corp? We are an Alliance, and by any means we are acting as an Alliance when it comes to attack, defend and own something.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

96 (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-11-14 19:01:50)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

Do u think 1-2 corps shuld hold all beta outposts? is this good gameplay? sparking is broken to hell.

2 corps don't hold all the OP's.  5 corps hold the majority of them.  FYI, I am not sure if you are aware, but your side controls 2 Beta's as well.  And Lines point is a good one.  Are you saying it would be impossible to take those 2 Betas because you would have a Spt advantage.  Is what you are saying?  And if your response is "But! But! you can just SpT into ABT and attack that way!!!"  If that is the case then why hasn't your side taken anything on Dom or Nova?  because you can do the exact same thing.

If you follow these two questions through to conclusion, the answer comes out as this.  The only reason SpT is unfair is because you guys are getting your *** kicked.  If you were the dominant side, SpT would be perfectly fine.  This is evidenced by, when 62nd/12 had there big buddy Syndic and his massive fleet, and were cleaning the floor with us on Dom, not a word was spoken about SpT being broken or OP.

Its strange how that the second you started losing, SpT suddenly because MAJORLY overpowered.  Strange that.....

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Martha Stuart wrote:

If you follow these two questions through to conclusion, the answer comes out as this.  The only reason SpT is unfair is because you guys are getting your *** kicked.  If you were the dominant side, SpT would be perfectly fine.  This is evidenced by, when 62nd/12 had there big buddy Syndic and his massive fleet, and were cleaning the floor with us on Dom, not a word was spoken about SpT being broken or OP.

this is the policy of double faces, how delightful!

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

If sparks didn't exist it would take much more effort to attack a beta island that is far from your own. Because of this it encourages larger entities to stick to an island they care about rather than a policy of asset denial.

Currently: people watch spas come up every hour or so with detectors. If you see opposition you spark and engage.

Ideally: people watch with alts - if you see opposition you travel via teleport to engage.

This would be the same mechanic for all and requires effort to be at every sap rather than a single click. It also carries risk as you are easily scouted and potentially ganked.

These risks would make holding lots of land harder meaning newer groups have a better opportunity to emerge on beta.

The reason people can't mine, rat or live on beta now is because death is a single spark away.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Martha Stuart wrote:

If you follow these two questions through to conclusion, the answer comes out as this.  The only reason SpT is unfair is because you guys are getting your *** kicked.  If you were the dominant side, SpT would be perfectly fine.  This is evidenced by, when 62nd/12 had there big buddy Syndic and his massive fleet, and were cleaning the floor with us on Dom, not a word was spoken about SpT being broken or OP.

It doesn't matter who has the most powerful force to me, it is still broken.

And that's what it comes down to, power just like the title of the thread, and the ability to distribute power across NIA.

When alliances are forced to split their power base, the opposition only has to defeat the power onsite, not the power of the entire alliance.

SpT is broken because it allows the most powerful alliances to move that power around TOO quickly.

Teleporters are not the same as SpT, it takes time for them to power up, there is a delay between uses, and the DESTINATIONS are 100% different than SpT.

The timing of the SAPS isn't relative, the issue is that without SpT, it would be a TOTAL pain in the *** to move an entire fleet from Island1-SAP to Island2-SAP 'just in case' it was going to be attacked. With SpT you don't have to make that investment in mind numbing movement time, you just wait until an attack occurs then SpT in.

That is what is supposed to make HOLDING outposts on multiple islands PIA, the TIME and effort to move troops around.

You're 'Take it if you can' issue is valid, IF you had enough power to occupy the Islands continually; but your using broken mechanics to side-step the 'inconvient' part of holding multiple islands to make up for a lack of power.

That said. It's not up to any player or corp to fix this. If the devs are 'listening' to the community and weighting the opinion of people playing over objective analysis, then they deserve exactly what they are going to get.

100 (edited by Burial 2013-11-14 19:07:02)

Re: - Spark Teleport - Power Projection - Now with poll!

Arga, the movement of troops is not nearly as hard as you seem to make it. Aslong as there are blood sparks in the game, you can just get to closest Alpha 2 and use interzones.

Otherwise very good points, Arga, just it doesn't have nearly the effect you think it would have.

In order to make it work:
- Buff Std Beacons so bots can carry comfortable amount of them.
- Nerf Blood Spark by only making it possible to set home station to the current terminal you are in.
- Remove Spark Teleports entirely.

We would be back to living on islands that are close by, scouting for enemy forces and so on. Nothing mysterious is happening with troops which is pretty awesome imo.