1 (edited by Hiro Protagonist 2010-12-05 19:11:47)

Topic: Ore calculator (among other things)

This is an open office excel document I wrote, it contains a list of every basic item, its mineral costs, and with some numbers (like your refining ratios) from your character or corp it will tell you how much of each type of ore you need to mine to manufacture whatever you tell it you want.  It took all day to make so I figured I'd spare the rest of you doing it again.
  Tier items just cost a multiplier of the base, so its got a column you can put the tier in if you want to make the higher level items.
  I don't quite know all the factory calculations, so if someone wants to make it more than my factory efficiency box, please change it and send it to me, I'll replace the current one with it and credit you.  If not I'll probably get around to it eventually. 
Anyone's free to use it, just don't change it a little and slap your name on it and say you did it or you'll get a mean letter from me.

*Edit: Cleaned up the spreadsheet a little, made it a little easier to use.  Also added a section for needed amounts of each rescource in addition to needed ore to make things easier on the refiners.

*Edit: found an error on the titan column, should be accurate now

*Edit: Moved to Google Docs, Best to download it first so you can edit it, not to useful otherwise.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key … y=COrBsuAG

Hiro

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Do i need to tell you it is awesome.. thanks!

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Higher tier items are not based on multipliers.  You need the lower tier item to produce it and you basically "upgrade" that item with few materials.

Its a good start though.

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4 (edited by Hiro Protagonist 2010-12-05 20:41:54)

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Neoxx wrote:

Higher tier items are not based on multipliers.  You need the lower tier item to produce it and you basically "upgrade" that item with few materials.

Its a good start though.

Actually the formula for making a tier 2 item, is the tier 1 item + the same resources used to make the tier 1 item (plus fragments if its a proto)... this sheet does not cover fragments, figure those are easy enough or someone else can put them in.  otherwise its exact, so multiples can be used to determine ore requirements/resource requirements.
obviously if your CT's are different quality you're gonna get different numbers, but that falls under the factory efficiency bit that I'm not quite sure how to approach yet, but chug your worst efficiency in there and you should not be off by tons.

5 (edited by Nipa 2010-12-06 11:04:03)

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Hiro Protagonist wrote:

obviously if your CT's are different quality you're gonna get different numbers, but that falls under the factory efficiency bit that I'm not quite sure how to approach yet, but chug your worst efficiency in there and you should not be off by tons.

Material efficiency works linearly on cost (which allows to compute easily the resources used by multiple successive production cycles), but that's the easy part.

The real question is how factory parameters (efficiency and relation) work on the cost (assuming extensions only affect the formers parameters).

Also how the producing cost (in NIC) is computed would be a good question. At least it's not directly proportional to the number of material used, maybe there is a weight to apply to each material, or maybe it's hard coded for each item (which I doubt).

I guess we need more data here.

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Thanks.

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Nipa wrote:

Material efficiency works linearly on cost (which allows to compute easily the resources used by multiple successive production cycles), but that's the easy part.

The real question is how factory parameters (efficiency and relation) work on the cost (assuming extensions only affect the formers parameters).

Also how the producing cost (in NIC) is computed would be a good question. At least it's not directly proportional to the number of material used, maybe there is a weight to apply to each material, or maybe it's hard coded for each item (which I doubt).

I guess we need more data here.

Ahh good someone else sees my problems.  I was hoping within a day of posting this thing someone would come forward and call me an idiot for not understanding how that works and give me the answer, but alas it has been more than a day and no such troll has come forward. 

  If anyone totally understands every factor that goes into making the final Material effeciency number, let me know please, I will put it in and call it Hiro and (your name)'s ore calculator, and it will be way more useful. 

   If you dont understand that, but know a little (more than just the ME on the CT) post it here and I'll try to incorporate it.  Otherwise I'm going to have to put points into industry to figure it all out, being a combat character that will make me unhappy. 

  As it stands right now, the easiest way to make this thing accurate, is to make a cheap CT yourself in game, see how much it costs, then adjust the factory effeciency on my sheet until the numbers match up.  After that you can assume that number is spot on correct for any CT you have of the same effeciency rating.  I'm not sure if you can just say a 5% more effecient CT is going to be 5% more effecient mineral wise after that though... I think the extensions modify the CT effeciency by a percentage, as I think does the factory effeciency. 

Ideally, I want this to eventually allow you to put in your relevant extension levels along with your CT effeciency, and then it will produce the exact same numbers you get in game (probably a line for each level of factory).  Along with how much extra you are going to need for less effecient future runs.
   
At any rate, you are correct I need more data.

8 (edited by Hiro Protagonist 2010-12-10 05:56:15)

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

I'm having some difficulty with the numbers on this.. seems to be easy in the small numbers.. I tested out a small miner which normally costs 300 titanium.. CT was 50% so 600 titanium to make after the CT.. if I have 1 point  in my ME skills, it costs 588.. which is 2% less than 600.  but with a character with 14% ME (7 points) the same item costs 522 which should be more like 516.  Im not sure what I'm doing wrong here.
If it were 14% less than the original cost of the item, which kinda makes sense (otherwise you'd be able to get 0 cost with 100%).. it should be something like 550.    I guess its on some kinda infinite curve.. but I dont know how to figure that out.

Hiro

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

the material ratio displayed in the top right corner of your factory window is NOT the % that is applied to your production.

ATM it shows you just how much of the possible ME you got. (if you have trained 50% of your extensions, it will show you 50%)
This is still under developement.

sum up your extension bonus manually wink

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Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Hiro Protagonist wrote:

I'm having some difficulty with the numbers on this.. seems to be easy in the small numbers.. I tested out a small miner which normally costs 300 titanium.. CT was 50% so 600 titanium to make after the CT.. if I have 1 point  in my ME skills, it costs 588.. which is 2% less than 600.  but with a character with 14% ME (7 points) the same item costs 522 which should be more like 516.  Im not sure what I'm doing wrong here.
If it were 14% less than the original cost of the item, which kinda makes sense (otherwise you'd be able to get 0 cost with 100%).. it should be something like 550.    I guess its on some kinda infinite curve.. but I dont know how to figure that out.

Hiro


Oh i know, 7 points in me related extensions is 14%.  As i mentioned above.  Even with those numbers im not getting predictable results toward the far end of 30 points in extensions.  26 points for instance is giving me the bonus id expect at 23

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Ok, so to attempt to figure out the factory numbers I equipped a character with a 50% ct of a small mining module.  at 0 extensions the module costs 600 titanium in a lvl 1 factory.  I tried it in a level 2 and 3 factory and there was no change.
this is a list of the costs with increasing amounts of extensions.  and the percentage of the previous number each works out to

0    600   
1    588    0.980000
2    577    0.981293
3    566    0.980936
4    555    0.980565
5    544    0.980180
6    533    0.979779
7    522    0.979362
8    513    0.982759
9    504    0.982456
10    496    0.984127
11    488    0.983871
12    480    0.983607
13    472    0.983333
14    465    0.985169
15    458    0.984946
16    451    0.984716

as you can see.. while it starts off as .98 per number it changes.  multiplying each number by .98 will give you the wrong answer many times.. can anybody make sense of this?

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

i can
and if you check the Q&A section of the forums, and take a close look at the topic titles there, perhaps you can find your simple error.

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Annihilator wrote:

i can
and if you check the Q&A section of the forums, and take a close look at the topic titles there, perhaps you can find your simple error.

If you are refering to the factor 1/(1+bonus), it doesn't work here either.

Of course it works for small values of the bonus, but that's only because 1/(1+x) = 1-x + o(x) near 0...

My guess is that the successive ratio between the values is monotonously increasing (and that the local decreases you are observing are caused by the rounding errors).

...

Graphed, without the .98 constant term, and with a linear regression of the values:
http://s3.postimage.org/69tejqtw4/linear.png
I mean, we can see the rounding at work here tongue

Or you had something else in mind? (and I'm asking that because it's 2 AM here tongue)

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

ah, its to late for me too, to dig out my spreadsheet that worked pretty well during the beta.
just in case, any calculation only works for virgin CTs anyway, because the displayed CT quality is rounded.

during beta the Relation bonus for the Factory was ~10%ME/TE for 100% Relation (you have to build the average yourself - guess what, the relation display is rounded too wink)

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Those numbers all came from the same 50%ct never used just plugged in to get the quote and canceled

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

This formula works for your values Hiro:
Cost = (Base Cost)*Product[(0.98+c*k), with k=0 to n-1]

With n the extension level and c approximately 0.003.

This can be reduced to c^n*Gamma(n+0.98/c)/Gamma(0.98/c).

But somehow I sooo don't believe this tongue

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

sorry, i dont get that graph.

for me roundup[(basevalue / CT quality)/(1+sum of extension %)] gave me the exact the result i saw in the factory.
after then everything / standing bonus and i got it +/- 10 pcs due to rounded standing display. (that for heavy mechs, which need tons of mats)

18 (edited by Nipa 2010-12-14 10:16:59)

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Annihilator wrote:

after then everything / standing bonus and i got it +/- 10 pcs due to rounded standing display. (that for heavy mechs, which need tons of mats)

If Hiro values were taken at constant reputation bonus, even accounting rounding, this doesn't work exactly. There is still something else.

For extension level 15, your formula gives 600/(1+15*2%) = 462, when his values give 458.

The formula Hiro was trying to check against was 600*(1-2%)^15 = 445. Which doesn't work either.

I agree these formula more or less work, but they can't be what's used in-game to compute the actual values. Or they have a lot of rounding during the computations.

19 (edited by Golden One 2010-12-14 19:48:07)

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Nipa wrote:

Also how the producing cost (in NIC) is computed would be a good question. At least it's not directly proportional to the number of material used, maybe there is a weight to apply to each material, or maybe it's hard coded for each item (which I doubt).

Easy, its based on the time required.


I'd say more but I feel like it's giving away corporate secrets tongue

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Hiro - out of curiosity - do you have negative standings for the megacorporation that owns that factory?

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

I have one rep for ICS (the place I'm in) thats negative, the rest of my reps for ICS are all positive.. most of them 1-2+

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

According to one of the Devs though, standing is not supposed to affect manufacturing cost, though he was going to check and make sure when he said that.

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Hey guys, has any progress been made at figuring out how to get the actual material required values?

So far none of the formulas above work, or are off by a good 3 or 4 % one way or the other..  Is this entirely attributed to rounding issues or are we still trying to figure out the actual math?

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

I'm pretty sure it's the round-off error at work.

Personally, I'd rather do infinitesimal calculus proofs than try to figure out some of the algorithms in the background of this game. I really hope some more clarification, or at least decimal accuracy, is on the way.

Re: Ore calculator (among other things)

Mouse over decimal accuracy would be nice.. As it stands right now much of this math smacks of errors and there is no way for the community at large to help find those errors, or more to the point create useful tools for others to use..

The last of which I have to think is actually quite harmful to the game rather than being "fun to figure out" as the devs insist.