Topic: The knowledge base

I haven't seen anyone point it out on the forums in a while so i thought i would remind the devs that the current research system using kernels sucks.  It's one of the main reasons the market was crap even when the population was at more reasonable levels. 

People who like to produce things and mine are often not the same people that like to grind spawns for days on end.  They don't even use related skills.  Hence those actually interested in producing don't bother playing unless they manage to convince a communist corp to give them everyone's kernels (before they quit).

That's all folks!

Re: The knowledge base

well, they have a chance to improve it step by step with the proposed change in tiered equip production.

for example, to gain research for the "+" tiers you need to prototype, RE and mass produce the base tier of that item.
perhaps not "must" but optional.

learning by doing...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: The knowledge base

That is actually a very nice idea. Keep the current kernel system but introduce another way that is disconnected from any form of combat. Learning to produce(prototype) the next higher item by building the item below (or learning it faster if given a ct of that higher item already) would mean a few people would start building stuff. That would accelerate the mineral market and the resulting modules would practically be sold without profit in large quantities for what today is T1 and T2 modules, seeding the market nicely.

With this method, an already "finished" prototyper could also share his knowledge by letting "new" producers build the advanced stuff.

The only disadvantage i see is that producing and prototyping, two formerly loosely connected professions become entangled. New extensions enhancing the learning process would also be necessary. It would take very long for a producer+prototyper to become competitive on the open market.


Another option i can think of is the possibility to make kernels manufacture-able requiring minerals/plant commodities. This way you could also mine to gather knowledge instead of shoot stuff.

Re: The knowledge base

Nian cat wrote:

I haven't seen anyone point it out on the forums in a while so i thought i would remind the devs that the current research system using kernels sucks.  It's one of the main reasons the market was crap even when the population was at more reasonable levels. 

People who like to produce things and mine are often not the same people that like to grind spawns for days on end.  They don't even use related skills.  Hence those actually interested in producing don't bother playing unless they manage to convince a communist corp to give them everyone's kernels (before they quit).

That's all folks!

You can buy kernels from the market, but I can tell you from personal experience that while it might be okay to augment your research a bit it's certainly not feasible as the only way to make gains.  Oh, and this has been a known widespread problem since forever. They don't care every game mechanic is built around hundreds of people contributing regularly over the course of years with little regard for anything else.

My production character is approaching 2 years old and has hundreds of million of nic in kernels researched and does not have one completed tree and has very limited t3 and t4 and gaps in t1 and t2 still even.  But I will also admit with the system having always been so daunting I never made a concerted effort to research everything (unlike, say Arga, who did, and used consider it his long term in game goal and still doesn't have everything afiak).

I suggest you read the older forum archives.  I know I posted multiple times back when I was running solo and trying to do production just for myself and those posts are still relevant because the system is the same.  Lot's of people posted similar things.  Every major influx of players in to the game = the same issues get posted to the forums over and over and over and rarely if ever are addressed; this is one of the big ones.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: The knowledge base

ZUBO wrote:

Another option i can think of is the possibility to make kernels manufacture-able requiring minerals/plant commodities. This way you could also mine to gather knowledge instead of shoot stuff.

+1, This is a great idea, and obviously the ore/plants required should reflect what the kernel is for.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: The knowledge base

ZUBO wrote:

They don't care every game mechanic is built around hundreds of people contributing regularly over the course of years with little regard for anything else.

Come on.

Instead of inviting people to retort, try to generalize the issue, looking at it from different angles. I understand from your post that (1) you play solo, and (2) you never made an effort.

See, there's a reason you can't manufacture directly from your knowledge base. All those millions of NIC you spend eating kernels? That's hundreds of CT's worth, literally.

Re: The knowledge base

Doek wrote:
ZUBO wrote:

They don't care every game mechanic is built around hundreds of people contributing regularly over the course of years with little regard for anything else.

Come on.

Instead of inviting people to retort, try to generalize the issue, looking at it from different angles. I understand from your post that (1) you play solo, and (2) you never made an effort.

See, there's a reason you can't manufacture directly from your knowledge base. All those millions of NIC you spend eating kernels? That's hundreds of CT's worth, literally.

You quoted me not Zubo, and your reading comprehension skills are somewhere around a 3rd grade level so I can't help you.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: The knowledge base

Crepitus wrote:

You quoted me not Zubo, and your reading comprehension skills are somewhere around a 3rd grade level so I can't help you.

Yeah, okay. So here's what you did say:

Crepitus wrote:

My production character is approaching 2 years old and has hundreds of million of nic in kernels researched and does not have one completed tree and has very limited t3 and t4 and gaps in t1 and t2 still even.  But I will also admit with the system having always been so daunting I never made a concerted effort to research everything (unlike, say Arga, who did, and used consider it his long term in game goal and still doesn't have everything afiak).

So then what is the issue in general? Just for the lesser-gifted among us?

Re: The knowledge base

I have posted this before...

Eat kernels -> get Kernel Points or Research Points.

These points are stored in a pool just like EP. You get to spend the points like EP on any tier line you want. ** Lose the randomness of research!**

This of course doesn't solve the issue with getting kernels. Maybe they could bump the drop rate up a bit again. It use to be 100% then it got dropped to 50%.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: The knowledge base

Doek wrote:
Crepitus wrote:

You quoted me not Zubo, and your reading comprehension skills are somewhere around a 3rd grade level so I can't help you.

Yeah, okay. So here's what you did say:

Crepitus wrote:

My production character is approaching 2 years old and has hundreds of million of nic in kernels researched and does not have one completed tree and has very limited t3 and t4 and gaps in t1 and t2 still even.  But I will also admit with the system having always been so daunting I never made a concerted effort to research everything (unlike, say Arga, who did, and used consider it his long term in game goal and still doesn't have everything afiak).

So then what is the issue in general? Just for the lesser-gifted among us?

You can buy beacons off of the syndicate market, and hire mercs to assist you, so what's your problem Doek?

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11 (edited by Celebro 2012-07-18 17:13:19)

Re: The knowledge base

Gremrod wrote:

I have posted this before...

Eat kernels -> get Kernel Points or Research Points.

These points are stored in a pool just like EP. You get to spend the points like EP on any tier line you want. ** Lose the randomness of research!**

This of course doesn't solve the issue with getting kernels. Maybe they could bump the drop rate up a bit again. It use to be 100% then it got dropped to 50%.


Research is intended for a group effort, increasing the drop rate would make it too easy for corps to obtain all the research as has happened in the past.

Losing the randomness is a good idea, but this just makes it easier to research too, therefore another drop rate nerf should balance it.

I understand it's hard for an individual to complete the research , but by making it faster/easier , the collective approach becomes far too easy. [edited]*.The game makes no distinction between a group effort or individual research, and there lies the problem.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: The knowledge base

The best way to fix the research system is to introduce another method along side kernel research.

Make it more expensive in time and NIC to prototype from this new method compared to having a full kernel research base.

Leave research as is, changing it will only make vets with full trees angry.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: The knowledge base

Celebro wrote:

Research is intended for a group effort

Oh really? If it were INTENDED for group effort then why not make research knowledge attainable by the group (corp)? As all knowledge is contained at the character level you will always have problems sharing the responsibility among the group, especially when that character stops playing or joins another group.

Of course it's faster to team up for kernal farming, but don't tell me it's INTENDED.

Sparking to other games

Re: The knowledge base

Sundial wrote:

changing it will only make vets with full trees angry.

Yeah, all three of them. Seriously though, of course it COULD upset those who have spent 1000 hours farming kernals.

I like the idea above about gaining research points and applying them as you see fit. If the system changed to something like that I'm sure those with 'full' trees could be granted enough research points to train right back up to that point. And surely those points would be used more effectively, so i think those with close-to-full trees would LOVE the idea of using their hard work to more effective use.

Sparking to other games

15 (edited by Annihilator 2012-07-18 22:03:50)

Re: The knowledge base

man, i remember the times when "research" was just "blueprints" and prerequisite production extensions with same structure as the extensions necessary for using the items. (eg. basic robot production, adv. robot production, basic/advanced magnetic weapon production ... )

it was to much copy of EvE and to much time based. So we got the kernel research. Since then, i was requesting a kind of middle-way for it:

not researching specific random named items, but researching the "technology" things are made of:
- Armor tech
  + unlocks armor plates
- Chemical damage mechanics
  + together with armor tech unlocks chemo hardener
- Electromechanics focused on magnetical forces
  + together with weapon tech unlocks EM weapons,
  + together with chemical damage mechanics unlocks chemo-slugs)

I would have made kernel research part of the reverse engineering facility, where you put in a kernel, and select a priority which tech your going to "research" from that kernel....

but well, as sundial already said - its to late....

edit:
together with the learning by doing mechanics, i described earlier.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The knowledge base

The hybrid system sounds like fun.  Maybe its so late that it's no longer too late.  It seems to me that things are so dire that radical changes are justified.  It's not like the DEVs shy away from big changes when introducing new stuff.  In that other game anyone could make a character, spend some SP and become an effective producer (yes i know this for a fact because i didn't have to pay real money for that game).  Here the barrier to entry is so painfully huge it's hardly surprising that the whole server relies on a handful of people for their gear. 

Perhaps getting access to the research could be relatively easy but kernels would subsequently improve efficiency as suggested previously

+1
-Confucius

Re: The knowledge base

Ville wrote:

You can buy beacons off of the syndicate market, and hire mercs to assist you, so what's your problem Doek?

I can't think of anything! This thread's OP stated kernels 'suck', but really, there's nothing here to remotely validate that. You can buy T1 off the market, which is your point of entry in general. Industrialists can get prototypes not in their knowledge base, so the means are there. And as far as I know, you can somewhat steer your research by eating a specific type of kernel.

Or is it more fundamental? Maybe a research base without T3 or T4 in it is not a research base at all? Same goes for bots? I'd be interested to know what the consensus on that is.

Re: The knowledge base

I think the system is fine as it is BUT I would like to see more information.

I'd like to see the tree - I'd like to know that I'm not going to start T4 detectors until I've finished T3 maskers and I'd like to know what kernal types I need to swallow to advance a particular branch.

Re: The knowledge base

Kaldenines wrote:

The hybrid system sounds like fun.  Maybe its so late that it's no longer too late.  It seems to me that things are so dire that radical changes are justified.  It's not like the DEVs shy away from big changes when introducing new stuff.  In that other game anyone could make a character, spend some SP and become an effective producer (yes i know this for a fact because i didn't have to pay real money for that game).  Here the barrier to entry is so painfully huge it's hardly surprising that the whole server relies on a handful of people for their gear. 

Perhaps getting access to the research could be relatively easy but kernels would subsequently improve efficiency as suggested previously

Yep... pretty much hit a home run there. The devs tried to make production more accessible but really they will never be able to do that until they make tiered production actually viable without giant investments... Sure the people who have ate all those kernels should have the advantage, but they can only cover so much of the game. Enable production for producers everywhere to fill the markets with T1-T4!

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: The knowledge base

Doek wrote:

I can't think of anything! This thread's OP stated kernels 'suck', but really, there's nothing here to remotely validate that. You can buy T1 off the market, which is your point of entry in general. Industrialists can get prototypes not in their knowledge base, so the means are there. And as far as I know, you can somewhat steer your research by eating a specific type of kernel.

Or is it more fundamental? Maybe a research base without T3 or T4 in it is not a research base at all? Same goes for bots? I'd be interested to know what the consensus on that is.

can you imagine the feelings of new industrialists that are told that they have to buy and consume several thousands of lvl1 kernels, to unlock T1 equip, that actually DOESN't need prototyping at all?

the real need for the knowledge base starts at T2, and that one already has a much slower research efficiency then T1.

You can stear the research a little bit, but only a little, since most kernels contain the same informations. Consuming doesnt bother if you have something already researched or not -> if the dice roll hits something you already have, you get "nothing new" message, not a second roll.

Example: Heavy glider kernels are the only ones that contain Scarab knowledge -> but they also got everything in that can be found in heavy industrial kernels. If you have finished T2 Industrial research, it doesnt mean that a Iron HG-Kernel will give you a 50/50 roll between "fail" and "scarab".

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: The knowledge base

From my parents I have heard phrase for a very hard work: "The Passion of Jesus Christ".
This phrase gives the best description for the research knowledge base in Perpetuum.

My first T4 item that I purchased has been T4 Accumulator recharger.

Me and my corporate members have spent more than 1 year killing NPCs, we gathered thousands and thousands of the kernels, and I still can not make the T4 prototype for the Accumulator recharger. sad

Allow us the choice of direction for research.

Re: The knowledge base

You and your corpmates have been doing it wrong, I have personal seen a 6 month old prototyper account that has finished all blue knowledge and never bought a single kernel off the market.

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Re: The knowledge base

Kazimir Casus wrote:

From my parents I have heard phrase for a very hard work: "The Passion of Jesus Christ".
This phrase gives the best description for the research knowledge base in Perpetuum.

My first T4 item that I purchased has been T4 Accumulator recharger.

Me and my corporate members have spent more than 1 year killing NPCs, we gathered thousands and thousands of the kernels, and I still can not make the T4 prototype for the Accumulator recharger. sad

Allow us the choice of direction for research.


The number of researchers i have helped finished there tech is ***, it is a pain yes but not impossible and quite easy when a group effort is put in.

Re: The knowledge base

You won't do it if you play on the weekends only.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: The knowledge base

Norrdec wrote:

You won't do it if you play on the weekends only.

We already have our jobs, ty.

TBH, removing "nothing new" stuff and make re-roll instead can help here. But brand new system can be the perfect solution.

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