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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Celebro wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

average price for hydrobenol is ~300 NIC, and for briochit it's ~500 NIC.


Ok, lets calculate the true value of briochit because that is wrong:


Noralgis 50 * 65 = 3250NIC

Titan 75* 0.5 = 37.5NIC

Epitron 50* 10 = 500NIC

Total value of Briochit: 3787.5 per unit ( higher due to no perfect refines)


That's how you calculate commodity values, Devs!.

Couple of things here;

First - Norgalis at 50 is based on pre-patch. This has not settled down to the new prices. It's used in so many, and in such quantity, that this is going to go down.

If it doesn't go down, then players can simply recycle it. So, in FACT, it must go down; and will to the point where it is no longer profitable to recycle.

Welcome to a player based economy.

This would be exactly true for any item on the market, if the cost of the raw material was inflated.

Let's ask this, who would benefit from from keeping Beta derived commodities expensive; especially Brio?

27 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2012-06-05 18:01:11)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Arga wrote:
Celebro wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

average price for hydrobenol is ~300 NIC, and for briochit it's ~500 NIC.


Ok, lets calculate the true value of briochit because that is wrong:


Noralgis 50 * 65 = 3250NIC

Titan 75* 0.5 = 37.5NIC

Epitron 50* 10 = 500NIC

Total value of Briochit: 3787.5 per unit ( higher due to no perfect refines)


That's how you calculate commodity values, Devs!.



Welcome to a player based economy.

I'll have to disagree, seeded items at a fixed price means the Devs sets the price cap of all the materials involved, not the players. If left this way then prices for everything will go down that's true, but it went down because of the seeded item set too low a price, not by players.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Devs seeded titan ore at .25 (ish) to ensure there was always a market for 'something' too.

A game this size can't be a hands-off market yet.

With a small active player base, and at least 10 of them I know of having over 10B NIC (some much much more), the market can't be hands off yet.

Players with tons of NIC can afford to buy and recycle large quantities, and little guys can afford to buy smaller quantities.

What are either of them going to do with the mats? Turn them around and make bots out of them? But, hey look, I can buy the mats myself at X NIC, I'm not going to pay X+ to buy a bot that someone else made with them.

They may need to adjust the quantities a little, or increase the buy price a little one-way or the other, but if they 'remove' this entirely, the inflated bot prices will stand: and THAT will hurt new players more than seeded items pushing down the market.

29 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2012-06-05 18:21:25)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

They have to adjust the seeded items way above what it is right now or else items will fall far lower than what it was pre-patch, I will assume that was not the intention of the industry changes, or just take seeded items of structures away there is no need for them.

Price of noralgis will set at around 10-5nic/unit without a fix, there will be not point in harvesting them its just a matter of recycling the items.

Conclusion: If your are going to set a cap, set a realistic price like the one Arga said for Titan ore.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Problem with capping ore prices like that is that you also cap the income for miners. Anyhow, this thread is not really about whether or not to seed raw materials (if you really believe that's a good idea, make a another thread about it). It's about an unintended use of a seeded item, which clearly is is being abused heavily given the market volumes.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Actually, I believe that prices for norgalis WILL have to drop below pre-patch levels, as well as the other materials.

18-22 NIC per unit is probably a reasonable price point, it's really the low population and lack of players living on beta that keep it as high as it was; that and somewhat the incubator pricing.

Norgalis has a base min price, based on the incubator and average yeild per plant, but that is much lower than 18 NIC, so there's a premium added in for 'Risk' already.

50 NIC pre-patch was simply a matter of low supply and low demand.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

While we are talking here, some people are using that exploit right now for sure, trying to mask all the traces in case it will be taken as exploit later. I wonder how THAT will be fixed.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Arga, once again you're just wildly speculating on noralgis price, there's also very strong reasons why it could increase (i.e. reduced yields and huge demand boost). Hence, all those words mean very little.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Line wrote:

While we are talking here, some people are using that exploit right now for sure, trying to mask all the traces in case it will be taken as exploit later. I wonder how THAT will be fixed.

Sounds awesome, I'm guessing massive downtime to follow.

Population graphs

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Just to be clear, buying items from NPC market orders with the intent or recycling instead of intended use is considered an exploit. We are monitoring this and will take action against offenders.

We are also fixing the issue as we speak.

Thank you for the useful comments and insights!

36 Reply by Blackomen (edited by Blackomen 2012-06-05 19:41:23)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

dont jump the gun guys. surely there might have been an mistake. but thats nothing that can not been corrected and im sure they are looking into the matter right now. and it might take longer then a few hours to set this right.

The entire reason I posted this here for everyone to see, was that we reported it and were "directly" told it's "working as intended". Hence the devs (Or at least the ones we informed.) had no intention whatsoever of "fixing" this as they didn't see it as broken.

Hanging out the dirty (Or in this case "broken") laundry seemed to be the only recourse, as is the case with far too many companies these days. I would have rather just reported it, and moved onto having fun.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear something will (hopefully) finally be done about it.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Will you be removing all the structures, even those that have already been RE'd?

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

DEV Calvin wrote:

Just to be clear, buying items from NPC market orders with the intent or recycling instead of intended use is considered an exploit. We are monitoring this and will take action against offenders.

We are also fixing the issue as we speak.

Thank you for the useful comments and insights!

Awesome! smile

39 Reply by Punk Panther (edited by Punk Panther 2012-06-05 21:21:37)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Arga wrote:

Will you be removing all the structures, even those that have already been RE'd?

This must be done. Would like to get a answer on this ASAP. Cause if you let someone keep what they RE'd then they have a huge advantage over others.

Edit. Those that did it before the announcement can´t be punished, but should at least have it all taken away.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

I am glad the Devs are taking action against the exploiters!  It would be good to see Bans in place and the Devs having a backbone against exploiters people who gloat about it!  Good Job!

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Punk Panther wrote:
Arga wrote:

Will you be removing all the structures, even those that have already been RE'd?

This must be done. Would like to get a answer on this ASAP. Cause if you let someone keep what they RE'd then they have a huge advantage over others.

Edit. Those that did it before the announcement can´t be punished, but should at least have it all taken away.

I was thinking about this more, and it would probably be very hard for them to determine how a particular CT was created, either with an item off the market or from one the was PT'd.

And, in retrospec, it would be a somewhat fitting reward for those that did this, to not have the NIC refunded, but to have the items they purchased put back into their inventories; and they can put the on the market to try and recover thier NIC if they want.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

1. Discovered something that creates infinite resources out of something.
2. Reported it to the Developers, allegedly they said its working as intended.
3. Created lots of infinite resources.
4. Posted about it on the forum so everyone can create infinite resources.

Only thing that is different from M2S and the insurance fraud stuff is point 4.
Only thing that is different from M2S and the duping is point 2 and 4.

In all 3 situations, there seems to be this "drive" (for lack of a better word) to find loopholes to create infinite resources of one shape or form. The only thing really different between the incidents is that Styx kept it for himself, and Blackomen shared it with the whole community.

In all 3 situations, it turned out that the leadership of M2S had the Devs ear in private communication via Skype. The first 2 were made obvious when Styx published his Skype logs with the Devs, the 3rd one was obvious when Blackomen said he's contacting Devs on Skype to fix the server after the crash.

To be honest I dont really want anyone to be banned so I think Blackomen shouldn't be punished(he did report it after all, even if badly and publically), but I think its high-time Perpetuum took a leaf out of CCP's book and made an official CSM. I don't know about the rest of us under-privileged players who can't call the Devs up on Skype, but if someone's gonna be able to I'd at least like to be able to cast my damn vote as to who that should be.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Syndic wrote:

if someone's gonna be able to I'd at least like to be able to cast my damn vote as to who that should be.

Well said. But the response will probably just be "Stop mentioning that we talk on skype".

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

^^^^ b***s*** spin pointing fingers to spin wrongdoing that never occured.

BTW, rage quit from perp forevermore is apparently only 6 months

Account share much lately...

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Syndic wrote:

Stuff said that noone gives a crap about.

Nuts

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

You know the discusion has arrived when Lupus shows up and calls bull.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

For those that seriously think reporting a clear exploit publicly is a bad thing, go talk about it here:

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/foru … dialogues/

48 Reply by GLiMPSE (edited by GLiMPSE 2012-06-05 21:52:09)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

^^^^ b***s*** spin pointing fingers to spin wrongdoing that never occured.

BTW, rage quit from perp forevermore is apparently only 6 months

Account share much lately...


Wow there barrel chested, pony tailed, e-thug... take a deep breathe before you stroke out.



There's no finger pointing going on here.

49 Reply by Karism (edited by Karism 2012-06-05 21:52:42)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Syndic wrote:

Blah blah

This is implying we actually did this a lot, actually one person (not blackomen), tested it in small amounts to see what was going on.

I then messaged someone in IRC to see if this was a bug, it was told that it wasn't, after that blackomen had no choice but to publically announce the fact that this seemed very questionable.

All i'd like to ask is that some people please grow up and stop with the childish insults and hangups over issues a year old, but that is probably asking too much.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

This "infinite resources have been created" nonsense really needs to stop guys. Nothing has been created out of thin air, just existing NIC has been turned into commodities, supposedly for less than their implied market price.