1 Topic by Blackomen (edited by Blackomen 2012-06-05 14:02:41)

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Topic: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

We tried going through the devs on this, but since they have made no changes, and since apparently it's now being allowed by the devs, I figure everyone should know about the new "legal" exploit/colossal market killing screw up of epic proportions, this way everyone can abuse it equally and not just a handful.

Currently you can obtain an infinite (Based on your wallet) supply of all materials short of the new collixum via recycling all the new seeded structures for gamma, and also via recycling all the seeded mining charges. (See new Collixum mining charge for two of the rarest materials in the game at low low prices.)

The ratio you get material back at is so high that it should allow the playerbase to return to "almost" a pre-patch level on several bots. (Still a bit higher.) Best yet, you can do this from the comfort of any station with no actual work required. Step 1: buy, Step 2: Recycle, Step 3:???, Step 4: Kill the mining profession off entirely.

Anyway, add mining to the artifact scanning profession as now dead. Just need the devs to kill off farming npcs and missions now and we can all move onto something else.

And before someone asks, yes I'm mad bro, the devs royally screwed the economy and are ignoring everyone reporting this claiming "it's intended".

EDIT: The devs have removed the mining charges from the market it seems while the server was still up, so make the above costs 20% higher, structures still make this exploit possible for now, so thread stands.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Thanks for the info, I have recycling 10 so I'll check this out when I get home wink

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

it'll only hard cap the maximum sell price if that collixum isn't that rare then it's not much of a deal (I srsly don't know what that *** it hmm )

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4 Reply by Lucius Marcellus (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-06-05 14:08:48)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

This is a really serious issue at the moment, it seems like a game-breaking exploit in my book and the DEVs need to swiftly take care of it (i.e. take off terminals and trace who has used the exploit and revert it). At least 1.6 BN worth of Hydrobenol and Briochit has been exploited, I expect the the DEVs to remove this from the accounts involved.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

First off, we have removed the npc orders for colixum mining ammo now.

But.

All those who think this was some kind of exploit didn't look at the numbers.

The colixum mining ammo is built up of 15 hydrobenol and 15 briochit. That is per 1000 piece. The current average price for hydrobenol is ~300 NIC, and for briochit it's ~500 NIC.

15*300+15*500=12000, that's 12 NIC per 1 piece of colixum mining ammo, pretty much half worth for what they bought them (and that's with perfect recycling, mind you).

What has happened now is that those who bought these mining ammos only to recycle them, have paid ~500-600 NIC extra per one briochit for the option to get it instantly from recycling, instead of going out and harvesting/making it themselves. The real worth of of briochit should be at least 1100 NIC in order for them to have gained on this. The question is, is it?

*edit: fixed numbers.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Have to agree, looking at some structure for 16 mil, just 100% of briochit is worth more that the mods (at current and pre patch prices).  Not sure if 100% possible, but still.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

It should not be possible to recycle any item which is seeded, no matter what price it is seeded at.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Ludlow Bursar wrote:

It should not be possible to recycle any item which is seeded, no matter what price it is seeded at.

I agree as you (devs) would have to constantly monitor market prices (is this being done currently?)

9 Reply by Lucius Marcellus (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-06-05 15:20:56)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

DEV Zoom wrote:

*edit: fixed numbers.

lol, allow me...

Briochit/Hydrobenol is barely traded at all, the average is massively misleading (if we assume the price of epriton is 5 per, then a price of 500 for briochit assumes a price of 5 per for Noralgis under perfect refining).

You should use the implied priced from the raw materials, then the price of briochit is roughly 3600 (assuming noralgis at 65)and hydrobenol 500 (this assumes perfect refining which is not realistic, so in reality implied prices are higher).

Then getting 10 hydrobenol and 10 briochit per 1000 ammo (quite poor refining) leads to (36,000+5,000=) 41,000 NIC. You paid 21,000 NIC for the materials. That's a huge gain (especially since it is in reality higher as I had conservative assumptions). If this is abused with good refining it's like seeding Noralgis at 15-20 per element.

Seriously, GO AFTER THE ACCOUNTS INVOLVED ASAP AND CLAW IT BACK. You're committing a huge mistake if you downplay the importance of this and no one in their right mind could think this is not an exploit.

And as other has pointed out, why can seeded items be refined anyways? Seems like asking for this to happen.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

So we should call it an exploit based on implied prices? You may be right with the numbers, but this sounds crazy.

And how would you distinguish between seeded and non-seeded items? They are all the same, we would need 2 different entries in the database for every commodity, which would create all kinds of issues throughout all industrial processes.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

DEV Zoom wrote:

average price for hydrobenol is ~300 NIC, and for briochit it's ~500 NIC.


Ok, lets calculate the true value of briochit because that is wrong:


Noralgis 50 * 65 = 3250NIC

Titan 75* 0.5 = 37.5NIC

Epitron 50* 10 = 500NIC

Total value of Briochit: 3787.5 per unit ( higher due to no perfect refines)


That's how you calculate commodity values, Devs!.

RIP PERPETUUM
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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

DEV Zoom wrote:

So we should call it an exploit based on implied prices? You may be right with the numbers, but this sounds crazy.

I've only been playing a month so i don't know the ins and outs of how your game mechanics work but the point made by the poster is crucial (as this applies to all markets), namely:

"Briochit/Hydrobenol is barely traded at all, the average is massively misleading" (italics mine).

The posters points ring true to me.

13 Reply by Lucius Marcellus (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-06-05 15:49:26)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

DEV Zoom wrote:

So we should call it an exploit based on implied prices?

If there is NO trade for the other good, definitely. The price you used for briochit is just total ****.

If there's one trade a year for mesmer mkII at 1 NIC, is the price for mesmer mkII 1 NIC? The mineral prices would dictate it's worth many millions. Now take this further, if I find a game mechanic that allows me to get an infinite supply of mesmer mkII at 10 NIC you would not call that an exploit?

In the end, refining exploits is all about implied prices.

And again, sort this out ASAP, even if you at the moment think it doesn't matter. It does.

14 Reply by Homer J Simpson (edited by Homer J Simpson 2012-06-05 15:52:11)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Well i thought this game had the ability for a player driven economy guess i was wrong.
Way to go DEVs for killing off a large section of your player base. Your number like so much of the maths used in this game is way off.

Im guessing the next thing on your list to F**k up is PVP.

Infact by allowing this to happen you are putting a price cap on most of the materials in game ... BAD MOVE

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

1. Get a huge amount of resources via that exploit
2. Build alotz of stuuff and bots
3. Get numbers
4. ?????
5. PvP and many other aspects are deep in ***.

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16 Reply by Blackomen (edited by Blackomen 2012-06-05 16:10:43)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

And why for god's sake are you even adding recycleable items to infinite sell orders? Even EVE and CCP in all the stupid things they did over the years knew to NEVER EVER seed any recyclable items on the market, they removed shuttles and even the PAX AMARRIA when players found they could recycle them.

Price caps are a big stepping stone to actually "killing" an economy. That may sound overly dramatic, but it's actually true.

I know the devs arn't economists, and neither am I, but this is all common sense stuff.

EDIT: Hell if you like the game the way it is right now, may as well skip the middle man and just seed materials on the market in infinite sell orders and we can just get rid of all this silly mining, then we can all just pve and run missions for stuff.

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Original Founder of M2S, may it rest in peace. sad
"Hungarian Math" is defined by the dictionary as "Just like normal math, but where each equation ends by dividing the sum by Potato."
-Shoutout to "Stranger Danger" for the "potato" comment.

17 Reply by Dan (edited by Dan 2012-06-05 16:12:28)

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Chill out. They'll fix it, but I was wondering why they put standard buildings on the market in the 1st place tongue

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

dont jump the gun guys. surely there might have been an mistake. but thats nothing that can not been corrected and im sure they are looking into the matter right now. and it might take longer then a few hours to set this right.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

I'm not 100% sure what defines an exploit, but here is the situation: Grinding some nic for 1-2 hours and buying a main terminal for recycling is FAR less work than mining the equivalent amount of raw mats.

Why would anyone in their right mind ever again undock a mining bot?!

Because the voices told me to do it.
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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

We're working on a solution.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Saramara wrote:

I'm not 100% sure what defines an exploit, but here is the situation: Grinding some nic for 1-2 hours and buying a main terminal for recycling is FAR less work than mining the equivalent amount of raw mats.

Why would anyone in their right mind ever again undock a mining bot?!

Hear, hear!

Also, by not clawing this back, ASAP, you set an extremely bad precedence.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Please post clearly, publically and officially are we or are we not allowed to use this, and will or will not the accounts/corporations using this be subject to EULA enforcement.

With a clear understanding that its set in stone and theres no "oh ***, changed my mind" lurking around the horizon.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

DEV Zoom wrote:

And how would you distinguish between seeded and non-seeded items? They are all the same, we would need 2 different entries in the database for every commodity, which would create all kinds of issues throughout all industrial processes.

Disable the recycling of all items that are seeded in the market, regardless of whether they can be produced by the player.

If these items can be produced by the players, put the seeded price more than double, compared to the cost of production, for example, as is the case with mining and harvester charges. Then it is not profitable to buy on the market and recycled.

If someone wants to recycle something that was produced by mistake, it's his problem, he should first come up with what will be done, and only then do so.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Syndic wrote:

Please post clearly, publically and officially are we or are we not allowed to use this, and will or will not the accounts/corporations using this be subject to EULA enforcement.

With a clear understanding that its set in stone and theres no "oh ***, changed my mind" lurking around the horizon.

This^. And also, would be nice to know if you removed all the stuff that people gained from doing this, cause this could screw up the economy for a while if you let everyone that did this keep what they got. I wont do *** til this is sorted out properly.

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Re: Infinite Supply of Refined Materials

Jelan wrote:

Haha CIR already wanting to use 'broken game mechanics' and getting worried after just a few days back.  A leopard never changes its spots eh

Actually Im quite happy because if it's allowed I'm going to pour our NIC into it, and if it isn't allowed I reckon pretty soon we'll be seeing a strike 3 for creative use of game mechanics.

Either way its a win-win scenario for me. I won't mention the third -win in the scenario since its pretty damn obvious as it is. wink

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