Topic: Structure HP and defence capabilities

we have build our first test outpost (all high tech stuff) and i tested how much it could take even with a active repair node besides it.

my resume:
buildings or ennergy backbones or reactors will most likely die before the repair node could even react. but even if it does. my single heavy mech (ok of cource only with the best of the best of the best fitted) would have taken them down with only a few salvos. but its only a single bot. enemies who attack an outpost dont come solo. they come in a shurly not too small fleet.

the structures have way too few hp atm. there have to be big changes before release.

what i havent tested yet is the strenth of the turrets, but their range of 500m will not realy be a bad thing for any fleet.

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

It's of course all a matter of balancing - that's why we have this testing. (And I personally also agree that their HP isn't enough.)

But know these:

  • Active defense is as least as important than passive: turrets hit hard, and their range and cycle time can be upgraded with booster nodes (note the plural).

  • Booster nodes also help with building armor resistances.

  • Raising hills to hinder LOS and terraforming in general is an essential part of passive base defense.

  • So are walls.

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

what i havent tested yet is the strenth of the turrets, but their range of 500m will not realy be a bad thing for any fleet.

DEV Zoom wrote:

Raising hills to hinder LOS and terraforming in general is an essential part of passive base defense.

have you ever played "Tower defense" ?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

all the HPs were multiplied by 2.5 today. next patch - new life.

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

And grenade launcher with area affect? They will exist in near future?

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

I think 2.5 times still is not going to be enough to make the investment worth while.

Right now the HP values are:

High Tech : 187,500
Advanced 162,500
Standard : 125,000

I think the values should be around

High Tech : 750,000
Advanced 650,000
Standard : 500,000

or some where near that, these PBS systems will take players a very long time to plan and build so i think the HP amounts should reflect that.

we need to keep in mind that these things can be wiped off the map ! unlike current beta terminals if we dont have the proper strength (HP) of the main terminal our PBS networks will fail.

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

If your quoting terminal armor values, remember that they go into lockdown for 3 days at 50%, there's no reason for their values to be in the 100k's.

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

your totally ignoring resists, do you?

Standard  125k HP 30% resists ~ 180k rel. HP
Advanced 162k HP 41% resists ~ 275k rel. HP
Hi-tech    187k HP 55% resiss ~ 411k rel. HP

and you can boost those resists with booster nodes. (make sure to put enough dirt around your booster wink)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

So here is  my point.

Today I got in a Gropho MK2 with the following fit
head: all tuners +1 co processor
Mid : all launchers
Lows shield and recharges

yes this is a junk fit and it was done with no rep bot

I was able to out range and kill all but laser turrets ... the back bone energy node took me about 3 minutes to kill

either the resists are not being calculated properly or

a 10 man gang of Heavies long range fit with or with out rep bots could wipe a med sized PBS settlement in an hour or so down to the HQ which will go into reinforcement....

ALL  Structures including the terminals need to have their HP multiplied by a factor of at least 10(form what the test server started at) in order to withstand a decent assault. booster nodes take about 1 minute to kill in a single heavy.

automated defense should slow the opponent down yes but as they stand they are a joke.

to make turrets effective they all need to have a range of 1000 meters and have a surface hit size of ~ 3.0

Also this may not be intended but everyone can see everyone's network layout so if i was going to plan an attack i can just look at the map and know exactly where the targets reactors and energy transfer nodes are..

this needs to be fixed

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

Make turrets shoot over walls, then you can augment them by placing GAZILLION walls around them. fuuu

11 (edited by Annihilator 2012-05-19 13:49:32)

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

Tux:

im intrested in the whole story:
You killed the backbone behind the turrets, and then killed the turrets themselfs?
Which booster was used on those turrets, and which tier of turrets was it? How many of them, and how much terraforming was involved.

What had the Backbone to do with the Defense turrets? It should be 400-500m behind your Defense line
Same for Boster and such. Those connections do not need LoS - so you can place Walls behind your turrets as Missile Catcher.


what i do agree is, that the turrets lack a distinct agressive AI. They are not using their whole locking range, and react as slow as a 2nd-star NPC.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

12

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

all of the structures i killed were high tech.

Im giving you the times on the backbones and boosters because these are the parts of the network that i would kill first to lower the defensive ability of the target network. i was able to use terrain ( i did not terraform it ) to work my  way into the targets network behind the turret line. This may or may not always be possible i know.

because laser turrets have LOS and i could easily counter them i was able to in my Gropho pick which ever targets i wanted because i just out ranged the other turrets and killed them

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

Tux wrote:

all of the structures i killed were high tech.

Im giving you the times on the backbones and boosters because these are the parts of the network that i would kill first to lower the defensive ability of the target network. i was able to use terrain ( i did not terraform it ) to work my  way into the targets network behind the turret line. This may or may not always be possible i know.

because laser turrets have LOS and i could easily counter them i was able to in my Gropho pick which ever targets i wanted because i just out ranged the other turrets and killed them

Could the argument be had that if a single player is able to break in to your gamma outpost and dismantle it by him self over night that said corp or outpost owner does not have the player base nor the proper knowledge of PBS to hold that station?

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
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14

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

Lemon wrote:
Tux wrote:

all of the structures i killed were high tech.

Im giving you the times on the backbones and boosters because these are the parts of the network that i would kill first to lower the defensive ability of the target network. i was able to use terrain ( i did not terraform it ) to work my  way into the targets network behind the turret line. This may or may not always be possible i know.

because laser turrets have LOS and i could easily counter them i was able to in my Gropho pick which ever targets i wanted because i just out ranged the other turrets and killed them

Could the argument be had that if a single player is able to break in to your gamma outpost and dismantle it by him self over night that said corp or outpost owner does not have the player base nor the proper knowledge of PBS to hold that station?

sure a valid argument, If I wanted to go head on i could still out range even the laser turrets and kill them with a long range fit so even the most well designed settlements are not able to properly defend against snipe / tank fits because the turrets are lacking range and a proper hit size because they are based on med size weapons.

The turrets is not the main problem, it is when the HP of the structures don't reflect their value properly. im sure these components will range anywhere from 25 mill to several hundred million NIC when they go live. if one guy can go around and kill these structures in a matter of minutes they are not worth erecting.

HP of the structures is very important, it doesnt have to be corp on corp war for settlements to be destroyed all it will take is for one guy to properly scout and kill important links ... remember you have to expand your settlement out over the island in the case of mining towers you will have areas of your network that are changing and evolving on a weekly or daily basis.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

15 (edited by Tux 2012-05-20 18:42:26)

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

Annihilator wrote:

Tux:

What had the Backbone to do with the Defense turrets?

Q :Whats the simplest way to take out 20 turrets ?? 
A: Kill their power source, they will run themselves dry

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

The LoS argument is a bit broken - a short testing with Lemon yesterday has shown that shooting at the turrets works through terrain -> even though you get the message that you just hit dirt, your damaging the turrets.

Theres more behind it then just the hitpoints...

I agree that the combat range of turrets is way to short - the only thing they can fend off, are small and assault bots.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

17 (edited by Tux 2012-05-20 19:56:26)

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

people will understand that in order to kill a settlement you must first kill its power sources then the rest will fall .. backbone nodes and energy transmitters are really weak and will need to be replaced on a regular basis as they stand.

here is mt train of thought:

when attacking a PBS you will not assault it directly you will cripple it first which means killin power supplies and boosting structures then go to town on the bigger structures. i know HP isnt then end all high resists would help as well but PBS needs to be worth while in order to work having some one cut wind around your PBS and it falling down is not my idea of worth while.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

18 (edited by Blackomen 2012-05-21 06:23:18)

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

Siddy wrote:

Make turrets shoot over walls, then you can augment them by placing GAZILLION walls around them. fuuu

Siddy you are alive! Thought you had quit the game from what I'd been hearing.

Edit: Ok, I'm figuring this out now. After checking all the structures again, I feel like everything but the terminal is made out cardboard, both in terms of armor, and material costs. Why are these "structures" so flimsy and made of so little actual material?

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Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

Blackomen wrote:
Siddy wrote:

Make turrets shoot over walls, then you can augment them by placing GAZILLION walls around them. fuuu

Siddy you are alive! Thought you had quit the game from what I'd been hearing.

Edit: Ok, I'm figuring this out now. After checking all the structures again, I feel like everything but the terminal is made out cardboard, both in terms of armor, and material costs. Why are these "structures" so flimsy and made of so little actual material?

Boosters O.o

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Structure HP and defence capabilities

The concept of a colony being unable to be taken out short of a proper siege is (Time). Here are some concept's for people to think on.

You have 3 variables to the durability to your bases surviability each of these requires a amount of (Time) to over-come and each directly complement each other to form 1 complete "roam proof", if you will colony.

Terraforming - Currently on the test server with the new values this does not require large amounts of time to do things quickly
Building- This does require a decent amount of time to establish a base
Defense- Currently only as strong as the design it is implemented with requiring precise terrain and booster use.

Now the time it takes to terraform is related to the number of players, this can also be said for the time it takes to crack a properly supported structure at its current values.

If a terrormed base requires a counter terraform to surpass its defenses to gain access to the structure network to break it the HP's don't really matter, simply the time to counter it does.

The flip can be said that if a terraformed base does not require it to be countered the buildings must live longer as it should take (time) to destroy this and the turrets defending it and i think everyone agrees that this should be on a seige level and impervious to small roams or roaming gangs (i.e. *Current pop* the 8-17 man roaming gangs)

Now a key factor in all of this is again designing it to work functionally but a proper base with its mechanics currently as is i would venture to say one could build a colony that could keep 10 players cruising by from entering.

However i also believe that these settlements should require player supplementation to really be that strong. With the tools given to you at all times you will have the terrain advantage and permanent buffs compared to a attacker passing by who may look for a free kill but is unable to advance on a even lesser enemy with Superior terrain and turret support.

I for one see it as being ok build a full colony with the high-end gear and terraform my island to my preference i would think somewhere in the ball park of a month of terraforming my island to my preference and establishing my (3) outposts. I would expect it would take me a couple hours to get a terminal down for remote ops and spend a week establishing my real foundation for the colony to be placed.

I think it is less about the actual HP and more the fact that it requires time and investment to over-come someones time and investment in to the building of it.


This is not to say that certain players would not be find ways to grief past this if you established a colony with out full time zone coverage but that is a risk you take.

But again i think it all stem's back to Time and how we want this time to be spent. I personally would rather shoot buildings less and terraform and combat over battlefield more to send them in to emergency mode and them quickly rebuild and new battlefield improved on the last one in 3 days for us to siege.

*Time is relative to the number of players and as the players increase the time required decreases thus balancing in the future will be required, rushing to quickly in to making hardened colony and allowing players to rush to gamma before they are necessarily ready will not benefit anyone in the long term.*

Note-Term Colony use over PLAYER BUILT as this is bodies of players we are viewing working together.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle