Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Alright, thats great Zoom.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

We all want more new players retention, and more players in general.  But if its a the cost of seeing my characters evolution scheme trampled without any recovery option every three monthes, im not so sure its the game i want to stay forever....

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

What's the actual advantage in terms of efficiency for gamma now though?

There's very little incentive for gamma owners to produce for the market, just supplying their own PBS production and PVP resources will keep them busy; not to mention again, transportation of materials and modules to/from gamma.

More likely to cause problems, would be a gamma corp allowing an alpha producer to use their facilities. In which case it's a Meta-advantage and not a game mechanic; meaning any alpha producer 'could' get access, if they use the right diplomatic channels.

Still, it comes back to full loot on gamma, and the inherient risk of storing anything above what is required for continued operations. Assuming there's enough player base to threaten gamma outposts.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

for the mining extensions - while i agree that a full reset of all ore-specific extensions should be done, i think i will raise all of them back to the same levels as now.

just because i dont do mining on beta very often, it doesnt mean i dont have the epriton extension (more or less the oppositte...)


@lucious: the new system adds flexibility.
you can decide how you want to reach the highest efficiency - either high CTs, high standing, or high extensions.
If you have all three together, your still the best, but the gap between you and someone not maxed is much smaller.

btw finally the recycling gets unnerfed with this... or at least less confusing.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Annihilator wrote:

either high CTs, .

Only if you own a gamma outpost, with the CT cruncher installed.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Nothing about your CT's changes from right now, they'll still be as good as they are now, and are they that bad currently?

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Now that we are getting random ore spawns, can we change Epitron back to a liquid?

RIP PERPETUUM

58 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-04-26 22:21:50)

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Arga wrote:

There's very little incentive for gamma owners to produce for the market, just supplying their own PBS production and PVP resources will keep them busy; not to mention again, transportation of materials and modules to/from gamma.

More likely to cause problems, would be a gamma corp allowing an alpha producer to use their facilities. In which case it's a Meta-advantage and not a game mechanic; meaning any alpha producer 'could' get access, if they use the right diplomatic channels.

Still, it comes back to full loot on gamma, and the inherient risk of storing anything above what is required for continued operations. Assuming there's enough player base to threaten gamma outposts.

So, your 'explanation' is that PvP corps deserve cheaper stuff than the rest? Also, any intelligent corporation could easily profit greatly from this, do you have any idea how much t4 equipment can fit into 1 scarab? There's no need for a deal with an alpha producer. Further, any 'agreement' between an alpha producer and a beta corp would be extremely difficult to enforce. Once the producer has started loads of tasks and moved ores, the corporation might just take away the right to dock and ransom.

And yes, there is more risk on gamma. And that is why they have gamma-specific ores, epriton, better spawns, decoder forges, CT forges, much better refining facilities and get full relation ratio by default. Gamma needs more rewards to compensate for the risk? Are you kidding me?

As a final point, I don't see gamma islands being that hard to protect given that you can add turrets, terraform and use walls.


Annihilator wrote:

for the mining extensions - while i agree that a full reset of all ore-specific extensions should be done, i think i will raise all of them back to the same levels as now.

just because i dont do mining on beta very often, it doesnt mean i dont have the epriton extension (more or less the oppositte...)


@lucious: the new system adds flexibility.
you can decide how you want to reach the highest efficiency - either high CTs, high standing, or high extensions.
If you have all three together, your still the best, but the gap between you and someone not maxed is much smaller.

No, it will still greatly affect the average cost from the fact that you can reuse an awesome CT 10x times and it will be awesome every time.


Finally, I want to point out that the 30-40% less materials is with current levels of facilities, as stated in the blog there will be even higher levels in the future, so the advantage is likely to grow higher.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Shaedys wrote:

Nothing about your CT's changes from right now, they'll still be as good as they are now, and are they that bad currently?

The CT's will be changed from % to pts.

One thing Anni was pointing out, is if your other facilities are great, a CT with 60 pts isn't all the much different than a CT with 30 pts. Meaning those 25% T4 CT's that you've hung onto, won't have to be crunched at a gamma outpost, just use them down to 0 pts; the material COST of producing another T4 CT will likely be MORE than the %mat effciency. This again, is even more true since the CT degrades PER ITEM produced and not per BATCH.

It's like the bank, only giving loans to people that don't need them. If your Gamma (with CT cruncher) factory + producer has 400 pts of matterial effciency, a 150 pt CT is only going to reduce the mats by say, 3% from 110% down to 107%. While a cheaper 100 pt CT may still reduce it to 107.5% and a 50 pt CT (450 pts total) may still be 108.3%. Those are made up numbers, but the diminishing returns gaurentee that if your base factory/producer total is high, then the CT pts won't make as much of an impact.

Where we can say for sure, that alpha factories + producers are sure to have smaller base pts, meaning better CT's will have more of an impact, but they don't have access to creating better CT's through crunching, and will need to use lvl 10 decoders (which gamma can also make), and decoders will be more expensive (since gamma can buy them up and upgrade them for use, not resale).

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

So, your 'explanation' is that PvP corps deserve cheaper stuff than the rest? Also, any intelligent corporation could easily profit greatly from this, do you have any idea how much t4 equipment can fit into 1 scarab? There's no need for a deal with an alpha producer. Further, any 'agreement' between an alpha producer and a beta corp would be extremely difficult to enforce. Once the producer has started loads of tasks and moved ores, the corporation might just take away the right to dock and ransom.

And yes, there is more risk on gamma. And that is why they have gamma-specific ores, epriton, better spawns, decoder forges, CT forges, much better refining facilities and get full relation ratio by default. Gamma needs more rewards to compensate for the risk? Are you kidding me?

Bolded for greater effect, nice... big_smile

I won't use bolding, but I wasn't making an arguement for Gamma, but since you've opened it up.

Why should alpha and gamma be naturalized (mathmatically speaking)?

All those benefits that PBS gives, are paid for by building those facilities, with the ongoing costs of defense and repair. Your type of argument made more sense, in comparing it to beta, since both alpha and beta facilities were 'preproduced' and available at no direct cost to the outpost owner.

To get a good factory, gamma will have to pay for it. I think that's reason enough to make it better.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

If an alpha producer needs to invest in high-end decoders and prototype while a gamma producer can just produce off the same ct forever, then the average cost is much lower => Very significant advantage.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

and get full relation ratio by default.

what bonus? you get nothing unless you build up your facilities there.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

If an alpha producer needs to invest in high-end decoders and prototype while a gamma producer can just produce off the same ct forever, then the average cost is much lower => Very significant advantage.


How will a gamma builder be able to produce off a CT forever?? I combine 2 CTs to make 1 good CT. After much use i now need to do this again... so i Proto a New CT use that & when that gets low i combine it with the old CT. And repeat the process again & again as need.

I see no WTF ZOMBI CTs here mate.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Lucius, this is a team play game, yet you play this game solo, safely from alpha. You never risked anything in game yet you are one of the richest players, if not THE richest one. What more do you want ? To have the same efficiency as a corp on gamma ?

Industrial Junkie

65 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-04-27 10:19:03)

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Obi-Wan - It was based on Arga's post that said that on gamma even a CT close to 0 points in itself will still be very efficient. Even if the argument does not hold to the extreme, the effect of lowering the average cost significantly is still there.

Arga/Anni/Tamas - There will be more advantage to beta now (as can get lvl 4 factory). Unless you realised it, I highlighted it in bold because there are already plenty of advantages, and I was NOT proposing to remove all advantages, but I think also adding in a factory advantage is just putting the final nail in the coffin on alpha producers (and an advantage this is not really called for).

Tamas - That is because those have been my goals, and I have been dedicated towards them, nothing really to do with this topic. This discussion is basically me saying that being an alpha producer will no longer be viable. No more no less. About me playing solo, well, I one sense it's true regarding my corp.


In short, I think I'm reaching the end of my alpha producer journey, it's clear the DEV's don't want that type of player any more, but perhaps I will give gamma a chance myself  smile

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

DEV Zoom wrote:

Yes there will be new mining and scanning extensions for the new minerals and plants.

Of course the EP for removed extensions will be reimbursed, like navigation and one of the manufacturing quantity extensions (maybe some others I don't remember now), but I don't really see why a full reimbursement of everything would be justified. All the indy extensions still have the same roles, if you had good extensions before, it will still mean an advantage to you over the less skilled players. Granted, the advantage will be now less harsh, but that's the whole point.

I'm not a 10/10/10 on my alt, however my alt is/was a part of the production chain, and a gatherer (Harvesting was my primary function). My harvesting skills are 9-10 on all plant related skills. Now you add a new plant and I just upped all my mining skills to 8-10 and would have rather spent those points in the new plant related skills.

Also with the down grading "easier" industry strain on noobs I wouldn't have spent so many EPs in ME as I'm not a high end producer I'm the first or second to touch an item not the 4th where the ME needs to be high.

Example: S-demobs are needed, I can produce T1-3 but my ME isn't as good as the corps main producer so I farm the T1 repair them then upgrade them to T2 and pass them to a 10/10/10 guy for the next steps.

I'm not asking for a full reset of EP but the affected trees should atlest be considered. And yes I want my cake and I plan on eating it too!

Anonymous: lobo is the only hero left in this god foresaken game / :also, Lobo is god among men
http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=agent-his … mp;month=7 Best month 104 to 1 k/d

67 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2012-04-27 11:40:49)

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

The more I think about these industry changes the more I like them and the less I feel the need for an EP reset in the related areas.

I really like the all the factors that effect material efficiency (extensions, CT, facility, relations etc) will be measured in the same units - although I do think we need a sexier name than just "points" (suggestions?) - simply add them all together. No more mind-boggling spreadsheets.

My 10-10-10 production is brilliant now because it means that I don't have to build a super-dooper whizz-bang  facility on Gamma or put so many upgrade points into a Beta outpost, or use lvl 9/10 decoders all the time - all of which save me a lot of time and NIC. I can sink that time and NIC into cool stuff like PBS defenses.

Mining changes are great since mineral fields will spawn within hours (max) of others being depleted (does this happen with plants too?) and you don't have to wait for two weeks for replenishment - you will never run out of epri again! Sure, you've got to go find the new ones and they might not be in the most convenient or safe place but that just adds a new role for people to fill - and a role which very new players can play.

Bit worried about fragmentation of fields, particularly on Alpha (on beta a corp/alliance could easily implement a "total depletion" policy) but I've yet to see the new Geo-scan interface (sneak preview of this maybe DEVs?) so my concerns are put to one side for now.

Good work DEVs, just a couple of things I'd like to know:

Will harvestable plants obey the same mechanics as ores/liquids? (i.e. amount per island regularly checked and re-spawned randomly when below a threshold)
When new mineral fields spawn will they be instantly full or fill over time as they do now?
Can we have a sneaky preview of the new geo-scan interface?

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

If production on beta already has soo many advantages, why is everybody still producing on alpha ?

Industrial Junkie

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Tamas Vitez wrote:

If production on beta already has soo many advantages, why is everybody still producing on alpha ?

I think that has more to do with other things rather than pure efficiency considerations for making stuff.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Tamas Vitez wrote:

If production on beta already has soo many advantages, why is everybody still producing on alpha ?

because they can get shot at there...

and the ppl that cry about that beta/gamma will be better as their alpha base where they are perfecly save and can do whatever they want to do all day long without interuption.

yes i am a beta/gamma player and i like it.

there is a simple calculation from me:

alpha: perfect save you can do whatever as long as you want. 24/7 if you like to.
beta/gamma: not perfecly save, and even if you have no losses you will have to defend and will be forced to stop your industry stuff.

thats enough reason why beta/gamma has to be better in there terms as alpha. or there is no to little reason to go to gamma for this.

if you cry about that then sry.. you cant have everything.
pick savety or pick efficiency. but you cant have both.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

But you already have much better efficiency, and access to better resources? The question is not if gamma/beta should have an advantage, because they already do, the question is should it be increased more?

Anyhow, I'm resting this discussion as I don't have any support, and I have  a feeling the DEVs won't change their mind either. Well, for now I can only hope they increase the efficiency a tiny bit more so I can get everything for free when finding a new home.

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

But you already have much better efficiency, and access to better resources?

Much better is about 12%. And most of the resources are mined on alpha. Your argument is invalid.

73 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2012-04-27 14:23:30)

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Mark Zima wrote:
Lucius Marcellus wrote:

But you already have much better efficiency, and access to better resources?

Much better is about 12%. And most of the resources are mined on alpha. Your argument is invalid.

Sorry, but it really does not invalidate my argument at all. Good try, though.

(Note: I haven't been complaining much about beta advantage up to now, so this discussion is not about current advantage, which I am quite fine with)

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Zortarg Calltar wrote:
Tamas Vitez wrote:

If production on beta already has soo many advantages, why is everybody still producing on alpha ?

because they can get shot at there...

and the ppl that cry about that beta/gamma will be better as their alpha base where they are perfecly save and can do whatever they want to do all day long without interuption.

yes i am a beta/gamma player and i like it.

there is a simple calculation from me:

alpha: perfect save you can do whatever as long as you want. 24/7 if you like to.
beta/gamma: not perfecly save, and even if you have no losses you will have to defend and will be forced to stop your industry stuff.

thats enough reason why beta/gamma has to be better in there terms as alpha. or there is no to little reason to go to gamma for this.

if you cry about that then sry.. you cant have everything.
pick savety or pick efficiency. but you cant have both.


wise words indeed

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: New devblog: Industry, remixed

Lucius Marcellus:
"In short, I think I'm reaching the end of my alpha producer journey, it's clear the DEV's don't want that type of player any more, but perhaps I will give gamma a chance myself  "

Good to se this thinking. > Will we have more people on gamme? I hope.

Ludlow Bursas:
"Mining changes are great since mineral fields will spawn within hours (max) of others being depleted (does this happen with plants too?) and you don't have to wait for two weeks for replenishment - you will never run out of epri again! Sure, you've got to go find the new ones and they might not be in the most convenient or safe place but that just adds a new role for people to fill - and a role which very new players can play."

Good words again, this is important!

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD