1 (edited by Cerzi 2010-12-01 18:35:39)

Topic: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

I'm just on the 4-day trial checking out the various systems in the game, and one thing in particular struck me as being problematic.  I talked about it with some people in-game with mixed agreement and resistance, and thought I'd just lay my argument down as clearly as possible here on the forums.

The issue is related to how attributes alter the EP cost of the various skills in the game.  Specifically, the problem lies in making people choose starting attributes that will drastically alter how quickly they can learn new skills later in the game.

Now, we all know that this game is heavily inspired by Eve Online, and the extension/skill system is an example of this.  Perpetuum is at an advantage, though, as the developers can look across the 7 year history of Eve Online's live servers to predict the future of their own version of the system.  Here are my thoughts.

Different MMORPGs give players varying opportunities to "gimp" their character at creation.  Looking back over the last decade, there are some reasonably forgiving games: in Ultima Online, you could start with a stupid set of skills and stats, but over time they would shift towards something more appropriate, and it was possible for any character to reach any combination of skills/stats with no disadvantages at the cap.  Shadowbane was always seen as less forgiving, with the potential to essentially "break" some classes by not spending stats and talents correctly during the level progression.

Eve Online has a reputation for creating the most frustrating "gimp chars" of all, though.  This may sound counter-intuitive as any character can train any skill in time, so as we tend towards infinity all chars homogenize.  The difference between Eve Online and Shadowbane, though, is just that: character progression is infinite.  There is no barrier beyond which a character's skills cannot be improved.  Combined with the fact that choices a player makes at creation permanently influence the progression speed across different skill vectors, we hit a problem that caused CCP a lot of pain.

The problem is, "gimped" chars in Eve Online suffer more and more as time goes on.  Someone who focused on Willpower and Charisma back in 2003 in Eve would have been a bit miffed that his gunnery skills were taking a bit longer than his friends those first few weeks.  A year later and his friends - taking the same skillpath - are getting into tech2 cruisers a few weeks before him.  He's comparing total SPs and finding he's a million or so behind.  The next year he finds out he's a couple of million behind, and so on.  The gap between the total progression of his "gimped" character and his friends constantly increased over time.

By then, though, he's got 3 years worth of SPs invested with his character.  He wants to reroll but even with good stats it'll take him over 2 years to get back to where he was.  But every year that follows he keeps falling more and more behind.

Eventually a respec option was implemented, despite CCP originally saying they would never implement such a thing.  Of course, it was an excellent fix.  But surely a game that adopts this skill system can -- in a system of infinite progression -- think of better ways to do things that the bandage that is the "respec"?

For this issue, my suggestion would be to minimize the "damage" that a player can cause to his character on creation.  The simplest way to do this would be to have everyone start with the same attributes, and for players to be able to raise attributes later in their characters progression, once they have a better idea of the consequences (for example, an equivalent of implants, or more permanent options).  Remember, a large number of players - particularly those who just want to get in the game and see what it's like (i.e. are on the trial) arn't going to do the full research necessary to make a truly informed, long-term decision on their starting attributes.

My implementation:One thought I've had that might be worth investigating is to allow attributes to shift up and down over time depending on what skills are trained.  Starting with a relative blank canvas, someone who trains a lot in combat skills will see the relevant attributes start to increase (with some form of soft/hard cap), while the non-relevant ones potentially decrease.  This rewards players for specializing, the same way that attribute choices at creation are supposed to, but is much more intuitive for the new player and makes characters "ungimpable" in the long term, because any character that might be considered "gimp" at one point in time can - in the long term - have their attributes shifted to match the player's new focus.

In a game so heavily inspired by Eve Online, it would be stupid to make the same mistakes that CCP made over the years.  I really, really recommend that the devs consider this now, while the game is still fresh, because this problem - as CCP know all too well - becomes harder and harder to deal with as the game - and its player characters - gets older.

2 (edited by Bastian Croft 2010-12-01 18:15:55)

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

I honestly think it's fine the way it is.  You're always going to have to sacrifice somewhere.  The guy in your example with high charisma/willpower could train other skills faster than his friends with lower charisma/willpower.  It goes both ways.

I'm GLAD there are no 'learning skills' here.  I'm glad we can jump right into training skills that matter to us.

3 (edited by Cerzi 2010-12-01 18:21:33)

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Right, but two things:
1) There wasn't (isn't?) an equal distribution of skills that used the various attributes.  Depending on your attributes, different characters would have vastly different total times to learn every skill in the game.  The ones that specialize in the under-represented attributes suffered as a result.
2) For following a certain path (ie. combat skills), some attributes are vastly better than others.  Someone focusing on cha/mem was going to be at a huge disadvantage to someone doing per/will, because very few - if any - relevant skills used cha/mem as primary.  Sure, this guy could go off and train some market management or mining skills faster than his friends, but what if he doesn't want to?  is he forced to because of the uninformed choices he made during the space of 3 minutes 5 years ago?

In terms of learning skills, I didn't mention them in my original post but I agree.  They are another example of a problem that CCP had to deal with for a long time, and the longer they were in the game the harder it was for CCP to fairly remove them.  Only now, this month, have they finally been able to remove them safely from the game.

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

*shrugs*  I don't see an issue with it here. 

I went pure combat spec here.  As a result, my engineering skills suffer.  I knew what I was getting into going in.  Could attributes be explained better (at all?)?  Yes, absolutely. 

But I don't think the system needs an overhaul.

Just my 2 NIC.

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

You'll never even want to get close to learning EVERY SKILL in the game.  If anything you'll want to learn every skill in a particular skill set like combat/ewar, but if you want to venture further than that you either make a new character or account.  It will be cheaper that way and there are so few crossover skills that you wont be hurting yourself by doing things on a new character.

Your pipe dream of learning every skill in the game just isnt realistic.

And wtf is this talk of charisma, willpower, cha, and mem?  Are you sure you know which game forum you're posting in?

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Unfortunately as the game has launched and they had the whole beta time to consider their system I think the way it is now is probably how they wanted it to work and I'd be surprised if they changed it. Not that I think there is anything wrong with debating alternatives. I think that the very fact that the common consensus states to either spec full combat or full indi to the exclusion of all the other possible combinations indicates a flaw in the design.

7 (edited by Bastian Croft 2010-12-01 18:24:43)

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Kroth wrote:

I think that the very fact that the common consensus states to either spec full combat or full indi to the exclusion of all the other possible combinations indicates a flaw in the design.

I don't.  Pure specialists should always be better in their roles than hybrids.

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Neoxx wrote:

You'll never even want to get close to learning EVERY SKILL in the game.  If anything you'll want to learn every skill in a particular skill set like combat/ewar, but if you want to venture further than that you either make a new character or account.  It will be cheaper that way and there are so few crossover skills that you wont be hurting yourself by doing things on a new character.

Your pipe dream of learning every skill in the game just isnt realistic.

You missed my point.  I was talking about the implicit imbalances in different attribute combinations.  For example, you very easily could max out all the Charisma-based skills back in 2003 in Eve Online.  So, in that situation, someone who went full cha was pretty useless.  I'm sure it's not that imbalanced here, but it's a point to consider.

And wtf is this talk of charisma, willpower, cha, and mem?  Are you sure you know which game forum you're posting in?

Because discussing the system that this game's EP system was directly derived from is a waste of time?  Are you kidding me?

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Bastian Croft wrote:

*shrugs*  I don't see an issue with it here. 

I went pure combat spec here.  As a result, my engineering skills suffer.  I knew what I was getting into going in.  Could attributes be explained better (at all?)?  Yes, absolutely. 

But I don't think the system needs an overhaul.

Just my 2 NIC.

+1 for comments from paying customers.

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

The point is not that its not specialist vs generalist, its that there isnt enough room to specialize into a niche roll like E-WAR.  Currently, its cheapest to do full military for e-war, but e-war has a lot of skills with research and development as a secondary.  If you had enough diversity in attribute allocation, putting points into research and development and not heavy industry would benefit the player a lot.  The fact is that you cant put more points into R&D without putting them into heavy industry so any benefit is lost because of you lowering military attributes too much.


We need to have certain choices that only affect 1 attribute ONLY.  Currently, every choice will affect 2 attributes nearly evenly, so you cant cross train into a specific role hardly at all.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Kroth wrote:

I think that the very fact that the common consensus states to either spec full combat or full indi to the exclusion of all the other possible combinations indicates a flaw in the design.

Agreed, and I was going to post another load of text on this issue but realized my OP had already grown pretty big, so I'll save it for a different thread.

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Bastian Croft wrote:
Kroth wrote:

I think that the very fact that the common consensus states to either spec full combat or full indi to the exclusion of all the other possible combinations indicates a flaw in the design.

I don't.  Pure specialists should always be better in their roles than hybrids.

I think you misunderstand my point, I'm pointing out the fact that the game has essentially 2 specs despite having 16 combinations.

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Kroth wrote:
Bastian Croft wrote:
Kroth wrote:

I think that the very fact that the common consensus states to either spec full combat or full indi to the exclusion of all the other possible combinations indicates a flaw in the design.

I don't.  Pure specialists should always be better in their roles than hybrids.

I think you misunderstand my point, I'm pointing out the fact that the game has essentially 2 specs despite having 16 combinations.

Then I did misunderstand your point.

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Kroth wrote:
Bastian Croft wrote:
Kroth wrote:

I think that the very fact that the common consensus states to either spec full combat or full indi to the exclusion of all the other possible combinations indicates a flaw in the design.

I don't.  Pure specialists should always be better in their roles than hybrids.

I think you misunderstand my point, I'm pointing out the fact that the game has essentially 2 specs despite having 16 combinations.

You're forgetting economy and politics, and there are people who use that as well.

If I designed it, I would make it in such a way that you had 2 major attributes (the 2 matching of military, industry, or politics) and then a secondary of any attribute.  The current system allows you to have 2 primaries only, 2 mid primaries and 2 secondaries, or all 6 nearly the same.  This sucks and is nearly useless wit hthe current extensions and related attributes.

Most "builds" will use 3 attributes in most all of their extensions, like my previous example of e-war, so gimping 1 of those secondary attributes is very frustrating.

I am Perpetuum's Most Dangerous Agent and an equal opportunity troll.
-> You just lost The Game <-
"Perpetuum sounds like a something I would stick up my *** for enjoyement." -Kaito Kurusaki

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

I agree whole-heartedly, Cerzi. To "gimp" characters based on starting attributes just seems counter-intuitive. I understand that not everyone will want every skill, but the current system places a (very) slight penalty on people who want to dabble, but that scales to what could possibly be a large penalty if said people decide they want to commit to those roles. The only alternatives are to roll an alt (and split EP), or grab a second account (the best option, though not as financially viable for some players).

There's already enough of a penalty incurred when one splits their EP between unrelated skills, why ramp that up further by making said skills (extensions, whatever) require a higher amount simply because you chose a different role when starting? I'm a fledgling  game designer myself, and can see no long-term gain from such a system aside from the potential of more subscriptions (which admittedly needs to be taken into account in design).

16 (edited by Cylon 2010-12-02 04:13:48)

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Give this game 3-6 months and they will offer a chance to reset your accumulated Attribute Points and focus in the areas desired.

Even the pioneers of Attributed Skill Progression Games like Anarchy Online offered that option once subscribers pressured enough.  smile

P.S. Of course it might be a Micro-Transaction (but that's a whole different discussion)

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

To me games like this are all about there versatility. I would be happy with one attribute re-spec a year to allow me to change the way I want to play throughout my time here. But to be honest I could just roll an alt. So I am not here to argue as either way i'm happy.

"False friends are like our shadow, keeping close to us while we walk in the sunshine, but leaving us the instant we cross into the shade."

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

If they gave attribute re-spec people would abuse. Ie, they would go all combat to get their combat skills up, then change attributes to industry and get those skills up.

19 (edited by Nipa 2010-12-02 10:24:38)

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

If they gave attribute re-spec people would abuse. Ie, they would go all combat to get their combat skills up, then change attributes to industry and get those skills up.

I would not call that abusing, but that's certainly a problem. If we get a mean to respect or modify our attributes during the character progression, it will become automatically more advantageous for the players to wait until he has the correct attributes to put point in any skill. And this will incite players to keep their EP the longer they can before spending then. This problem didn't happen too much with Eve since the skills were progressing anyway, attributes correctly set or not.

And I think this is a really unfun mechanic. Waiting to spend before understanding a bit more the game is alright, but having a long term benefit in not spending its points is, in my opinion, a really dangerous design.

Having attributes work retroactively on skills costs would solve every problem. This would of course lead to some negative EP in case of consequent respecing, but I'm pretty sure this is a lesser worry (this could be negated with forbidding to respec all the attributes in a single shoot, and/or allowing partial skill respec -which is more or less needed, anyway-).

20 (edited by Jero Kane 2010-12-02 10:48:01)

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Bastian Croft wrote:

*shrugs*  I don't see an issue with it here. 

I went pure combat spec here.  As a result, my engineering skills suffer.  I knew what I was getting into going in.  Could attributes be explained better (at all?)?  Yes, absolutely. 

But I don't think the system needs an overhaul.

Just my 2 NIC.

The problem is, the attributes are now NOT explained at all!  Just like the losing of the 20.000 starting EP when you delete your character to reroll, because of a mistake.

I have now messed up two characters (one in EP and the new one now with Attributes) on two accounts.

The character creation process is really unclear and vague in this. I really tried to even out all the attributes as best as possible, but because of scewed attribute view with graphs, I still end up with 20+ in Economics and Politics and only 9 in tactical.

Furthermore there was no real information whatsoever (during character creation) about what effect attributes have, so I didn't put too much thought at it at first. And even thought (as this game was resembling so much to EVE Online) that I could compensate / improve sertain lacking attributes in the game later on.  Which appears not to be possible at all!

So next to the shard permanent EP issue, we now have a permanent non-repairable attribute issue new players are going to run into and break their heads over!

This is really not a good way to attract new players and lock them into screwed up characters.

My 2 cents.

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Neoxx wrote:

The point is not that its not specialist vs generalist, its that there isnt enough room to specialize into a niche roll like E-WAR.  Currently, its cheapest to do full military for e-war, but e-war has a lot of skills with research and development as a secondary.  If you had enough diversity in attribute allocation, putting points into research and development and not heavy industry would benefit the player a lot.  The fact is that you cant put more points into R&D without putting them into heavy industry so any benefit is lost because of you lowering military attributes too much.


We need to have certain choices that only affect 1 attribute ONLY.  Currently, every choice will affect 2 attributes nearly evenly, so you cant cross train into a specific role hardly at all.

It would allow people to become more specialized, perhaps to their own detriment, when they realize later on that their character has to make some money from recycling, research, or repaired items.  People can be shortsighted, and there tends to be no advantage to starting a new character in EVE, unless you are dual boxing or need someone who is always in a particular station to do errands, like a research alt.  What you are doing now with this character may not be what you end up doing in the long run.

In EVE, it is often the guy with the better "core" skills that wins.  It is the ignorant players that level up their ship and gun skills, then hop in a battleship that runs out of capacitor.  Many of the "core" skills in Perpetuum are R&D and industrial, are they not?  I might be wrong about that because it's not in front of me, but my memory tells me they are.

Each route has trade-offs, but there is a lot to be said for hybrid specs.

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

I'm not a fan of the attribute system in this game, it's tricky trying to raise one attribute but not raise the other you have no interest for. Plus a lack of description during the attribute selection process meant it became a guessing game. Since EP gain is precious and they didn't design the character creation process too clearly, I would hope this would get looked into, and for those of us who have already commited to our characters but feel as though our attributes could do with a respec.

23 (edited by Jero Kane 2010-12-02 12:17:24)

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Honelith wrote:

I'm not a fan of the attribute system in this game, it's tricky trying to raise one attribute but not raise the other you have no interest for. Plus a lack of description during the attribute selection process meant it became a guessing game. Since EP gain is precious and they didn't design the character creation process too clearly, I would hope this would get looked into, and for those of us who have already commited to our characters but feel as though our attributes could do with a respec.

This was mentioned and admitted by DEV Zoom in General chat 2 days ago. I hope he really meant what he said and he will be looking into this, to give existing char some form of "one time" attribute respec. To correct our mistakes.

But more importantly is them improving the character creation process and give us more control over setting attributes. More importantly to more clearly explain the attribute system for new players and it's implications when they create their firfst character(s).

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

That's good news, cheers for the info Jero.

Re: Discussion on the probelms of attributes

Jero Kane wrote:
Honelith wrote:

I'm not a fan of the attribute system in this game, it's tricky trying to raise one attribute but not raise the other you have no interest for. Plus a lack of description during the attribute selection process meant it became a guessing game. Since EP gain is precious and they didn't design the character creation process too clearly, I would hope this would get looked into, and for those of us who have already commited to our characters but feel as though our attributes could do with a respec.

This was mentioned and admitted by DEV Zoom in General chat 2 days ago. I hope he really meant what he said and he will be looking into this, to give existing char some form of "one time" attribute respec. To correct our mistakes.

But more importantly is them improving the character creation process and give us more control over setting attributes. More importantly to more clearly explain the attribute system for new players and it's implications when they create their firfst character(s).

This is encouraging.  I played EVE for about 8 months in the Before-Time[1] so I have no experience with this scaling issue, but I get math.  I'm sure there exists a solution to this that will straddle the fence between abuse and functionality.

In Allods Online re-speccing cost real money, and it wasn't cheap, like $7.50 per re-spec.  Not that that game is a good example of game management, but if the price is high enough in either in-game or real currency then it can serve both the Devs need to keep the game honest and the player's desire to improve his in-game experience.

My first thought is re-specs would be allowed at some EP cost[2], same as avatar deletion.  In effect, this would allow a re-balancing of skills at a cost of time accumulated.  Future advancement though would no longer be gimped and the net outcome over time would be an improvement for the avatar.

Lastly, I don't think respeccing should be an option until after the avatar has spent some rather large minimum number of EP, ie. once the scaling effect really started to have an effect.

Ta,

[1] -- before WoW came out.
[2] -- to be determined by the devs, obviously.