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Having roamed around beta islands today, I basically cannot get anywhere without a sequer full of bombs. I've breached a bunch of them, but roaming is costing like 2.5m NIC / 10km. It's pretty funny, but it's very broken.
It's only getting worse. Please fix!
Short walls, curved walls, long walls, and gates. I mean if your gona have walls,,.
Gates can be arched one way two tile structures, with the corp flag on them. Or if a corp prefers to completely wall passable terrain, Displacement gates, that only allow allies through. Put one displacement gate on one side, and another on the other,,,,if the outside one gets destroyed. The owners have to tellie out and put up another one.
All walls need to be targetable. With loot. either the damaged wall, and some plasma, enough so its profitable to shoot them. There can be mods to the walls, also, for each weapon type. Basic walls, and Hard walls, that require more nic, and or resources.
A new weapon type can be used for walls. I like something like a sonic weapon that can only damage structures. Because they don't move and sonic, while it condenses fire on a fine point, and can burn a wall down cant hit moving targets,,,and the lock is broke if the target does move.
Area defenses are dependent on the owner. If he spams walls, its his choice. If walls 3k away from his OP are burned down because he cant extend his influence past 2k? only time would tell us if this is the case.
I played with walls, and they did cause lag if the owner put in a zillion of them. Not to say that would happen here.
But if a OP changes hands, a weapon, wall dismantle device, some way to clear the terrain of junk is going to be needed..
I hate to ramble,,,but if walls are targetable the extent of walls built will only extend as far as the corp can actively defend them. O wait. Do i see turrets in the future? You know fighting for a wall section while under fire from a hovering turret,,,would,,,,what?
I like combined arms battles,,,this wall deal has me playing beta hopping for just that.
Thanks for the wall,,,,well get there..
PS walls need to have something to support their existence. Now it is the OP and SAPs. Storage, which is probably fubar, because storage is in the OP,,,Power Plants,,Radar Stations, turrets. Just to name a few.
How to keep light roaming viable is beyond me. Give them a wall gun...?
Couple of points to note:
you can get where you want - use mobile teleports
The people with walls have basically left static nic dumps. Kill the walls and inflict economic damage n them. Its not sexy but its just as damaging as a miner kill.
This is the games first real nic sink. Use your head and make it expensive for folks.
Strong fences make good neighbors.
Walls, in no way, eliminate the need for PVP defense.
The only function walls perform are to direct traffic. Depending on the placement of walls, this allows defenders to slow, re-route, or block traffic. Walls can't defend an Island, it still takes players in bots to do that.
I try to keep my perspective balanced, and I can see the impact the walls have on stealth roamers, but there's the bigger picture also.
There's two incompatible game mechanics being mashed together. Roaming and Territorial warfare.
If islands are easily roamed, then they are difficult to defend. When something is difficult to defend, the risk/reward ratio needs to be very high in order to make it worth while (See 1000 posts in forums requesting increases in rewards for beta dwellers). Why does 62/war have so many outposts? Because prior to the patch, they weren't worth the effort to take.
The wall/probe system has reduced the difficulty of defending an outpost and has made owning one more rewarding. This is generating a new level of interest in beta, which is going to bring more players onto beta, and more people into the game in general.
Players roamed outposts and Islands because that's where the sap loot and random ninja miners where. Undoubtly the new system makes roaming harder, but it needed to be, to make defense less difficult. There needs to be seperate objectives for roaming and for terrirorial defense, to decouple the risk/reward and allow both to exist at a level that is playable.
The map has a named section label, which I assume most people leave unchecked because it makes the map hard to read. Each outpost has a named area around it. Now, ideally roam and territory objectives would be on different islands, but these named sections could also be used to introduce the concept to existing islands.
Outpost owners have full control of the land within thier named sections. I'll leave the details about what can and can't be done outside the sections for discussion.
tl-dr: Its too long to TLDR, just read it.
M Piquet wrote:Just wondering how you manage this when walls are non-targetable?
Uh, someone has blocked my path
8 Minutes latertotal cost of the experiment: ~300K NIC, most of it Ammo.
According the whining it would need 6 plasmabombs to get through all three walls. They had enough hitpoints to sustain 1 bomb and the distance was bigger then the explosion radius of BombsDisclaimer: no bombs have been exploited, and no NPC have been harmed or killed for this experiment
Sorry - perhaps I'm just thick, but your pictures don't actually explain anything.
Fit two sensor amps, target rats behind wall in distance, shoot
Not really rocket science :-)
Sorry,
unlike Mark Zima, i have the opinion, that a game should not tell you all possibilities in some documentations offered by the DEVs right when its implemented.
i have fun discovering different ways to do things. This one is so easy that its probably fixed soon by the DEVs with a patch. You will also see it or read about it within a very short time, now that several player i know have figured it out already.
And unlike me, they are active PvP player which have the right to talk about PvP mechanics. I have posted this so early just because i could not stand the statement "that it is impossible alone without a bomb".
and jita - no... i had 4 t2 lcl laser equipped - as you can see only 1 sensor amp and a detector. the radar cicle is 1km
Fit two sensor amps, target rats behind wall in distance, shoot
Not really rocket science :-)
That's handy if there's a rat spawn behind the wall. Unfortunately, not every wall comes with it's own rat spawn.
Take the walls surrounding, say, Brightstone, with their maze-gate. Not a rat in sight. We had to use bombs on the wall - must have done, oooh a million NICs worth of damage? Shame it cost us 5 mil. Not exactly going to hurt ToG in the wallet.
Jita wrote:Fit two sensor amps, target rats behind wall in distance, shoot
Not really rocket science :-)
That's handy if there's a rat spawn behind the wall. Unfortunately, not every wall comes with it's own rat spawn.
Take the walls surrounding, say, Brightstone, with their maze-gate. Not a rat in sight. We had to use bombs on the wall - must have done, oooh a million NICs worth of damage? Shame it cost us 5 mil. Not exactly going to hurt ToG in the wallet.
it was a nice maze wall tho 10/10 for creativity.
Could you not drop a beacon on the wall and shoot the rats that spawn on the other side?
Alternatively do the same with something else deployable
Could you not drop a beacon on the wall and shoot the rats that spawn on the other side?
Alternatively do the same with something else deployable
Basically all of your responses have come down to...quick throw NIC at it.
ALL of your solutions COST more then what the wall is worth.
As it is now small scale PVP is dead, not just kinda dead, its COMPLETELY dead.
All that we have now is blob's running around attacking other blob's, if one blob see's the other blob, they just dock up and play it safe.
The market implications of this you will be seeing as well. Epi will crash, and I predict to be under 5 NIC PU very soon.
Are walls a bad thing? Well you get what you pay for, Walls have made this game extremely small, I'm talking less then half the space we originally had.
This isn't a good thing, its very similar to what EVE did, and DIDN'T fix. But I digress.
Why does it cost more than the wall? Who's to say you couldn't drop the entire wall and not just bust a gap in it. The way I see it walls are like littering your island with tanked up lithus. Theres hundreds of millions of nic waiting to be destroyed - far more risk reward than the dock up once your scout arkhe spots a roam tactics of old.
todys message before the server shutdown...
[17:33:48] *** Sorry about the restart, Kentagura couldn't take the weather and NPCs are sitting still like lemons
[17:39:38] *** Server restart in 20 minutes because the Kentagura server just declared independence from Perpetuum and we're busy silencing the coup.
[17:45:11] *** Quick restart in 15 minutes, we're not sure what happened to Kenta, but we suspect all in all it was just... *puts on sunglasses* ...another brick in the wall. (YEEEEEAAAAAAAH!)
Gee, I wonder what could have caused that...
Game mechanic only allows 95 walls per 21x21 area. Changing the landscape, through PBS and terraforming is what everyone is waiting for. If the servers can't handle uniquely built areas, we're really in trouble.
Could you not drop a beacon on the wall and shoot the rats that spawn on the other side?
Alternatively do the same with something else deployable
What do you do when your beacon spawns six escalating waves, half the gang has no local rep and and you end up being outnumbered by the hostile force on the other side of the wall, who saw you coming because you couldn't kill their walled in probe and had all the time in the world to form up bigger and harder than your gang because you had to stop and rat to get through a wall?
It's not really a practical solution, is it?
Well first of all fit for the job, not the roam. You can fit for wall breaking, operate close to the teleports and as your shooting at rats never flag. That means your enemy has to hold every external or basically they will lose all walls in running distance to the teleport.
Its an adapt or die situation really. Look at the situation and make it work, dont make excuses.
The perspectives, they are astonding...
Here is what walls have done. In order to get any pvp, you have to set up to punch thru walls, get to and destroy or avoid probes, and make sure everyone has at least a mobile teleport with them. By the time you actually get to your objective, you have spent at least an hour getting there, and your opponents have had all the time needed to dock up if they cannot engage, or batphone everyone working with them to get to there.
Meanwhile, all the mining types are having a field day, literally, mining and hauling with almost no risk of any threat getting to them before they can dock up. They are still reaping the rewards of beta living, but with no substantial risk to justify those greater gains.
Whereas in the past people actually had to scout out their area of operations, and have a defensive force available to defend assets on the field or SAPs, now all you have to do is wall spam the hell out of an island. You can't even get in and out to even scan for sap timers, and by the time you punch thru the walls, you're lucky if you can get to a SAP before the intrusion completes.
The only way to counter this is a massive blob with the firepower to punch thru relatively quickly. One wall takes little time to get thru if you can set up properly around it, but multiple double thickness walls, even a huge gang takes too much time to actually get to the objective. Due to this, you are seeing alot of outposts sit at 100% stablity, because no one can be bothered to actually take the time and effort, and marshall enough manpower, to actually try and take the SAPS.
Ther was huge crying by the same individuals now advocating walls against the change from being able to jump on an island to having to actually be within 1000 meters of an active SAP to detect it. The arguement used was that "it was too much effort and risk" to be able to scan the SAP times ( yes I am refering to 62nd) and that it would "shut down random pvp due to active SAPs". It did not, there was actually significant pvp going on after the change.
The real issue here was that some corps and alliances were starting to get their heads handed to them, and were seeing greater activity targeted against them due to that. Walls for them came at a perfect time, because it allowed them to make it so difficult that the majority of people actually fighing them can't now be bothered to spend all the time to be able to get a fight, only to find that if the oponent does not have 2 to 1 odds they have docked up and disappeared.
I ask the DEVs to keep in mind that what is good for dynamic gameplay, and what causes a stagnant environment, and not be swayed by personal agendas. Some defensive structures should be allowed, but not indiscriminate spamming all over an island. there should be a range and limitation mechanic, like a nanopump hub that has to be energised, or tied to an outpost ownership and the region of that outpost, or some sort of maintenance fee, that limits use of walls to absolutely necessary defensive implacements only, and not just who has the most cash to fill in every available slot in the landscape and turn the beta islands into, effecticely, alpha, with no risk but greater rewards.
The perspectives, they are astonding...
Here is what walls have done. In order to get any pvp, you have to set up to punch thru walls,
I stopped reading there, because its not true, as your're implying 100% of PVP requires breaking down walls.
There is LESS PVP without going through or TP'ing around walls, but it hasn't reduced it to 0.
I agree with most of what lupus said .. tho i do like the freedom we have to build walls where we see fit & not having restriction on that placement. I think thats a nice part of the sand box.
But An on going cost is needed. The people protesting this seem to be the ones who have built an absurd amount of walls.
Also wall building needs to be tied to territory control. being able to build walls in a area of an island should be a reward for achieving control of that sector of the island.
I don't think someone appreciated the picture of that rooster on their island
I don't think someone appreciated the picture of that rooster on their island
eh? post a pic
Lupus Aurelius wrote:The perspectives, they are astonding...
Here is what walls have done. In order to get any pvp, you have to set up to punch thru walls,
I stopped reading there, because its not true, as your're implying 100% of PVP requires breaking down walls.
There is LESS PVP without going through or TP'ing around walls, but it hasn't reduced it to 0.
You know what guys I have the simplest solution:
Nerf ERP.
Ville wrote:I don't think someone appreciated the picture of that rooster on their island
eh? post a pic
I am at work currently.
Responding to Lupus after this: The real issue here was that some corps and alliances were starting to get their heads handed to them, and were seeing greater activity targeted against them due to that. Walls for them came at a perfect time, because it allowed them to make it so difficult that the majority of people actually fighing them can't now be bothered to spend all the time to be able to get a fight, only to find that if the oponent does not have 2 to 1 odds they have docked up and disappeared.
So what your saying is only you should live on Beta because you formed the biggest EU timezone blob? *News Flash* We have killed people In walled off areas, outside of walled off areas and between them. Because you want an Easy roll a EU Blob through the gates and zerg a SAP and then run off then go "We are trying to get a fight." and you can't now.
All this crying on the forums making your alliance look even more pathetic then coming out of the woodworks after CIR left and said let's reform now that our supreme overloads left!
The developers have made it harder for a small handful of people to take SAPs during off peak time zone hours with out ACTUALLY wanting to take the stations.
Stop making excuses, pvp is not Dead. In fact more alpha corps are venturing off to beta then ever before. Most are requesting access for the Beta owner and striking deals with them.
Perpetuum has changed. Deal with it and buy a *** teleport beacon.
Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:Ville wrote:I don't think someone appreciated the picture of that rooster on their island
eh? post a pic
I am at work currently.
:sadface: same here ... YAY for working from home tho
Obi, Yeah I already posted similar thoughts, like using the map's named area's to limit where you can drop or changing the per 21x21 limit. Those are better solutions to harnessing wall propagation than requiring an upkeep.
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