1 (edited by Syrissa 2012-01-15 14:11:40)

Topic: [idea] New form of mining

i dont know how you guys see it. but mining is one of the most boring things in the game. besides it does not realy require a lot of attention. but you need to do a few clicks here and there all the time. maybe some ppl like this while watching a movie or doing something else, i just dont see here any real fun in it. its a "nessessary evil" and a annoyance.

you need to to it but the thing itself is no fun. no action and i personaly think should be replaced with somthing diffrent.

so here is the idea:

instead of a mining bot that stands on a spot why not drop a "mining robot" out of your cargo. lets call it "mining robot", we allso could call it "pos" or "pbs" or whatever. its just a thing that stands on a spot and will mine this field in a certain area.
you could do this with the same skills and you could even have diffrents of these "mining bots" you could also make it fitable. so you can use the same mechanics you have in mining right now. you can fit it you can build it, you can destroy it, but you dont have to be there physicaly with your character while it works.
of cource it needs a realy big cargo just like a container.

im not giving anything how fast this will mine, how long it will be operational or how large the area will be where it will mine. this is a thing of ballanceing i dont want to point out here. of cource you would only be allowed to have one active one out in the field per character. call it a remote contol and that needs some of your sparks data prcessing ability and that is limited...

you also could go on and make some comination of this with actual combat. (yes i have seen something like that in another game.
so you can have some special high yield "mining bots" that will atract the attention of the nians. so npcs will spawn and attack that "mining bot". and it will be your job or the one of your corp to defend it. you can do it in diffrent scales. so small ones you can do solo with a bit better yield up to a high end with lots more yield ant you will need quite a good squad to defend it. of cource you will also have loot form the npcs. but you also need a reward for the defending ppl.

i personaly think this will make mining way less boring and everything else way more intresting.

/discuss

Re: [idea] New form of mining

This does the opposite of what I would refer mining to be. This means mining is purely about hauling and protection. There is a small focus on finding deposits which will hopefully get a lot more fun once mineral deposits move and the scanning mechanic is made more similar to artifact finding.

This would be such a major change that it would pretty much force all the current miners to become haulers or combat characters to guard their mining probe/structure.

Firefall already has this as their main gathering concept where NPCs attack you (And hopefully players can too).

This is a nice idea but it would have been needed from the start. While you find mining boring there are a lot of people that enjoy it. The main complain I hear from miners is that the yields are hauling times do not seem right for time spent mining. They want to mine, fill up and make something but at the moment they have to find 2+ different minerals things to make anything apart from ammo.

3 (edited by Syrissa 2012-01-15 15:23:52)

Re: [idea] New form of mining

well you could impelment it as a alternative way. maybe even that you will be faster if you mine it with your bot as it is now. but alsy have the option to do it that way. maybe with 10% less efficency. but you dont have to stand there.
of cource you would have to make it a "either or" option. and not a "and".

besides the combat variant would be a option. you dont have to do it, but would be able to to it. and yes its firefall that gave me the idea. and i personaly think its a good one.
a dedicated miner dont have to use it. he still can mine a lot without that.

and there still is the option as you said. that mining should be more about finding the spot then just standing still. you will use the same mecanics as you do now. so still no problem with that.

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Something that competes with ' the real' mining as it is right now, will just make mining so much less unrewarding, that it won't be worth your time and effort, so no.

This idea literally kills a whole profession, and there are loads of people playing who actually enjoy it.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Those who mine but find it boring should probably not be mining. I enjoy mining but I dislike the transporting of materials. I also dislike the geoscanning mechanic but know that it's a clever system for those that enjoy using it. There are other ways to play this game and I do what I want without missing out on anything. That's how it should be. If you want to do Industry but not mine then you need to find friends you can do logistics for.

This idea does not address a problem but instead removes it and creates more problems. There is almost no merit to adding this idea.

Re: [idea] New form of mining

I mine and enjoy it. However i like your idea syrissa under the condition the yields do not come close to competing with lwople doing actual mining.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Sundial wrote:

I mine and enjoy it. However i like your idea syrissa under the condition the yields do not come close to competing with lwople doing actual mining.

The idea is for people that want to make things but not mine.. To that I say there should be alternatives and we have them. Trade and recycling. Leave mining for those that want to do mining. The only mining change should be to lower the logistical costs as most miners spend more time working out how to haul something than mining it.

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Alexander wrote:
Sundial wrote:

I mine and enjoy it. However i like your idea syrissa under the condition the yields do not come close to competing with lwople doing actual mining.

The idea is for people that want to make things but not mine.. To that I say there should be alternatives and we have them. Trade and recycling. Leave mining for those that want to do mining. The only mining change should be to lower the logistical costs as most miners spend more time working out how to haul something than mining it.


+1 trade is the best option for those that just enjoy the manufacturing aspects. Logistically though its a pain, and its not only the volume of ores to haul around its also the segmented way resource gathering has been approached. Where every resource is located at different places.

An idea I would suggest is to just have 2 prospecting resources ores and liquids, and miners collect x% of desired minerals depending on charges used plus a smaller percentage of the rest. To make it more interesting for prospectors resource fields could be high,medium or low grade, giving higher percentage mined of desired ores. This system could equate to more trade for 'unwanted' minerals. Would also mean just needing 4 different locations to get all alpha resources, ore,liquid fields and the 2 plant types which remains unchanged.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Alexander wrote:

The idea is for people that want to make things but not mine.. To that I say there should be alternatives and we have them. Trade and recycling. Leave mining for those that want to do mining. The only mining change should be to lower the logistical costs as most miners spend more time working out how to haul something than mining it.

qft

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Good ide I woul like to use it I dont mine because that is not a game, that is go there and sit then go back when you done.

But yes who like mining do it, and he still will be most rewarded, but give me that thing and I will mine sometimes for my corp or anything.

Can be something similiar: after you deployed that will be disappear or stop when is done and can be 50 % less efficieny like "real" miners.

Maybe the better solution can be is make mining more interesting.

(btw that idea was many times here)

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

11 (edited by Syrissa 2012-01-15 23:50:54)

Re: [idea] New form of mining

well the thing is that the industrial players in the game are limited. or lets say the player that enjoy mining are limited. but as a corp you need a lot of resources. so if you need stuff then you have to to it. mybe i would not have brought this up if we had 10 miner that mine day and night for the corp. but you know what? de dont... ^^

so i thought of how this problem could be solved. first how to get resources without standing of a spot for hours and just changeing tiles and emptiing cargo (sorry but if you enjoy that and dont do anything besides that and just watch doning that, then i might doubt your mental state. this is one of the most monotone and boring things in the world...).
so with my "automated" mining. that can be less efficient than your very intresting tile switching and cargo emtiing, then you have one advatage. well you have a mining char, but he is free. you can logout, or do anything other, that require your atention. well i dont like logistics that much mor but at least you ar "buisy" piloting your transporter. (well mybe thats why you miner dont like it because you actualy have something to to).

ok fun aside, sarcasm aside... (pls dont take taht comments above all too serious. if these actions are fun for you the so be it. ppl are diffrent, but i can never see any fun in doing basicly nothing. the result of getting things done might give a certain grade of satisfaction, but the thing you do is just annoying)

i think that this idea will give the players that are more into combat a reason to get a mining char. a nice sideproduct will be that maybe more combat ppl will get a second/third account, because this can provide additional resource income.

and the idea (like seen in the firefall trailers) to combine combat with high yield mineral extraction my bring both miners and combat ppl together, what i think is not a bad idea at all.

and i cant say that often enough. i dont want the current mining mechanic gone and replace it. i want this additional to the current system, so to give a greater varity in resource gathering and make it more atractive to ppl that dont like the current way to do so.

on the other hand, this could also make things way more easy:
http://www.mdg-lahnstein.de/uploads/pic … agger1.jpg
big_smile

12 (edited by Syrissa 2012-01-16 00:15:36)

Re: [idea] New form of mining

more thoughts to the bringen combat and mining together:

well first lets look at the current instant npc action we have right now: beacons!
beacons are relativly easy because you have room and time. the next wave comes when the first is done and you have normaly enough room to outrange them and kill them slowly.

if you have to protect a "mining beacon" that will bring you a good reward of a good bunch of minerals, and you enemy does not care if you have finished the first wave, then you cant be slow and take your time. you need to bring enough to get the job done, or the enemy will overwhelm you. that means you have to bring a certain ammount of combat thrength with you. or the enemy will kill you and the mining beacon at worst.

this will give the hole a clear scalable work vs reward system. you can scale up the difficulty to a point where you will need a squad of capable heavy mech pilots to do it. of cource you also have to ballance the mineral gain. if you need more power to portect that thing then you can scale up the yield you get.

the intresting thing with this is that you can boost your mining output with combat power. so you can bring even the ppl to that part of the game that dont wnat to do anything with mining. but you bring them together to do something to gether and to have fun together, and still work together for the same goal. (in my case this would be to gather resources for the corporation, but the reasons can be more egoistic as well)

even if you enjoy both, mining and combat and have account for both, so you can combine it.

well i guess i will here negative answers from the dedicated miners here, because they will see their profession in danger as it was pointed out easlier. but i think this will enrich the game.
the ballancing will be another thing. yes the solo "i drop my mining here and be gone" should not be too profitable. lets say without any math behind it 50% of a miner sitting on a spot.
but when you bring the combat into it you can bring more into the rewarding system. should i bring more yield then a single miner? no! but if you need a miner and 5 good heavys then you have the minerals and the loot from the npcs, and that should be a good reward overall. that should be good enough to encorage more group play than simple solo mining or npc farming.

so i could go on but the wall of test is big enough for now.

13 (edited by Celebro 2012-01-16 00:52:13)

Re: [idea] New form of mining

A passive way of resource gathering in any way shape or form which competes with the same resources from a traditional miner will not work. Mechanics that are too passive can be 'exploited' with multiple accounts very easily and adds no playability to the game at all. Games are there to be played, not left to be played by themselves.


The problem is, we need more players which would mean more who would prefer to mine all day, a healthy market helps a lot too.

RIP PERPETUUM

14 (edited by Syrissa 2012-01-16 01:08:12)

Re: [idea] New form of mining

you can bring a lot of accounts anyway. most ppl have a limit because they dont see a reason to send that much money for a game. for that who have it and/or dont care still can bring a lot accounts and manage them. then mining dont needs much to be played. think i heard of someone mentioned 7 paralell account in perp of some player and i have heard similar or bigger things from STeve.
besides if ppl bring 20 accounts just to place their "automated mining bots" and use another 3 accounts to collect the minerals. hell why not. that are 23 payed accounts that is quite a good money for AC. no problem with that.

so were is the problem with "very little" or "no" interaction while in the process. with my suggestion there still is only a limited ammout of mining possible and a trial or short time char will not bring a resonable ammout of mining. it still will require the same skills as a miner that has to make a few clicks all 10 minutes to do his job. no 300apm as in others games (gg).
besides you can also use  it while you are buisy with transportation or anything else.

it was said before. mining is no game. it has way to few interactions to be considerd a game. you like that? thats ok, but still no game. maybe you like "subway driver simulator" or similar titles that are quite successfull on the asian market. but sorry no game.

and i think that you are wrong with the thing that more then one way can bring you the same minerals. its already in the game. recycling also gives the same commodites as you will get from mining after you refine them. so another way can be sucessfull. you just dont get that much from recycling as you get from mining/refining. oh wait thats what i suggested with the idea.

its a varity and a bonus for ppl that dont stand there 24/7 on the field doing clicks every 10 mins. their reward would be less per time. but it would still be a gain.

something like that has to be ballanced to the other ways, but taht can be done.

15 (edited by Annihilator 2012-01-16 01:44:13)

Re: [idea] New form of mining

active mining works as it is... why adding passive mining?

that would kill the variety of robots you see on the battlefield. Now you have to work with specialized mining agents to gather the materials for the big toys. If you want to field them you have to cope with the logistics behind their production.

if you dont want to do that - buy them off the market from those who like that part of the game. Dont you get enough NIC for what your doing?

PS:
i wonder how i can mine while beeing afk 10mins...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Annihilator wrote:

active mining works as it is... why adding passive mining?

that would kill the variety of robots you see on the battlefield. Now you have to work with specialized mining agents to gather the materials for the big toys. If you want to field them you have to cope with the logistics behind their production.

if you dont want to do that - buy them off the market from those who like that part of the game. Dont you get enough NIC for what your doing?

PS:
i wonder how i can mine while beeing afk 10mins...

When mining you can't look away from the screen for more than 3 minutes at a time if you're doing it right.. Else you're botting..

Mining needs to be made more interesting but not by taking away the only part of mining that currently feels like you're performing an action. Further reductions to hauling and improvements to geoscanning would make the process more fun. Most miners WILL NOT find combat people willing to waste time (Which is money) guarding the miners unless they HAVE to.

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Reading between the lines - Low server Pop strikes again.

Even players that 'like' to mine, don't want to have to do it 5 hours a day 7 days a week. But, as Syr points out, if your one of only a few miners in a corp, you have to.

But, putting in 'passive' anything to counter low server population isn't the right direction.

And you can't make something that characters are buring out on more interesting.

It doesn't matter if your talking about SAP defense, gate monitoring, mining/harvesting, ANY function in a game is going to get boring if your forced to do it continually.

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Arga wrote:

Reading between the lines - Low server Pop strikes again.

Even players that 'like' to mine, don't want to have to do it 5 hours a day 7 days a week. But, as Syr points out, if your one of only a few miners in a corp, you have to.

But, putting in 'passive' anything to counter low server population isn't the right direction.

And you can't make something that characters are buring out on more interesting.

It doesn't matter if your talking about SAP defense, gate monitoring, mining/harvesting, ANY function in a game is going to get boring if your forced to do it continually.

+1 No way around  the ' It gets boring if you do it all day, everyday' because everything does eventually.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: [idea] New form of mining

The grav site idea in eve was good.
Could you mine all the best materials before someone else scanned it as well.  smile

Re: [idea] New form of mining

im still curious why noone said "nnooooo, no mining moons in perp, they already suck in eve" here?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: [idea] New form of mining

The reasons for no passive mining stands alone, they don't need Eve referrence to show that its bad smile

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Celebro wrote:

+1 No way around  the ' It gets boring if you do it all day, everyday' because everything does eventually.

the problem is you have to do it all day or oyu never get a resonable ammount of resources for production.
do it a few hours and you will not see the end of the tunnel.

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Syrissa wrote:

the problem is you have to do it all day or oyu never get a resonable ammount of resources for production.
do it a few hours and you will not see the end of the tunnel.

Exactly.

If your production needs X 1000U's of material, and there are only Y miners (players, not accounts), then each player has to mine thier share. The more players you have that can mine, the less time they have to do it per day.

We need more indy players. sad

Re: [idea] New form of mining

the question is not more miner players.
the question is how much % of the server population has to be miner to fullfill the needed resource income. the next problem is that a lot of indu/miner ppl are rather carebares and want the money only in their own pocket. not realy usefull for a beta corp... (dont take that personal everybody. but thats the way it is with a lot of ppl. if you think that this is not with you then thats ok, just ignore that).

the other question is:
how many miners do you need to get one producer running...

Re: [idea] New form of mining

Syrissa wrote:

how many miners do you need to get one producer running...

Without getting specific numbers, there is always a bottleneck in production.

From a mining perspective, a vetern miner in a Riv MK II has a 220% yeild and a base cycle time around 6 seconds (Optimized those both can be much better).

However, you can't compare how many man hours go into gathering raw materials compared to the number of hours needed to produce an items, trying to look for balance, because the producer isn't locked into the outpost for the length of the production.

Meaning, Arga has 10/10/10/11 production, and ALSO drives a MK II Riveler. So, while my production lines are running, I can go out and mine.

While I was in CS on beta, I was online for hours and couldn't mine, because the Island was too hot.

So, I would say it acutally takes MORE PVP players to support beta operations than it takes miners, because the miners can't do thier job without protection. In conjunction with that though, you have to have enough miners available to make putting out protection worth the time.

What really sucks though, is miner PVP defense is BORING too! So generally pvp combat guys dont want to sit around for hours while miners mine, so miners look for times they can sneak out and grab ore without a full guard.

When I did this, I ended up having to fit sheilds and hardners, without a LWF just in case. And then there's the risk of losing your can too.

tldr- the question of how many miners is complicated, and depends on the yeild of your miners, how long they are able to mine, and how much is actually being produced. It shouldn't be 1 to 1 though, that is (1) producer should need multiple miners to maximize production.