Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

big_smile ehmm I kind of imagined a shield in that fit somewhere..  Nevermind...move on. *facepalm*

27 (edited by Sundial 2011-10-25 01:59:59)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Question:

What is stopping other light ewar bots from using a shield to tackle with, besides not having the regeneration bonus and having lower base accumulator? Assuming they fit like the troiar to be dedicated tackle, I would think it would at least provide them with a significant buffer, more than provided with an evasive module (at the sacrifice of speed). With level 5 improved shielding and a tech1 shield, you would have a ratio of 0.389, giving you  771 extra effective HP. The Troiar would have approx 300 more. But you could also modify your fit making use of your extra head slots for increased amount of tank. 1 T1 hardener would make you have as much effective HP as a troiar.

Kaldenines while I understand what you are trying to say with this topic "the fun is gone from tackling", you said it was not "practical" to run an armor rep? Is it the decrease in speed? Because using a shield will decrease it more. A shield is also more fitting intensive.

Focusing DPS on a tackle bot regardless of color, you should be able to break a MK1 bots shield very quickly. With less DPS, yes the troiar would have a signigigant advantage.

What I am trying to say here: Troiar MK1 runs a shield instead of an evasive, which is more fitting intensive and more heavy. Should it not get increased reward from that just like any other tackle bot that chooses to fit one? Fitting for maximum speed/range tackle usually does not provide any kind of decent tank, just saying.

Sacrifice speed, increased fitting requirements = tougher tackle bot.

If you want to make a tanky tackle, nothing is stopping you from doing so, regardless of your color. But be prepared to sacrifice your extreme speed and cap intensive protections. A chameleon / intakt could actually run a more tanky fit than the troiar due to having twice the headslots.

EDIT:

added some numbers / fitting stuff

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

just throwing in: probably any light ewar can be as effective as shield tank-demobber as the trojar, with a same combination, but sacrificing a headslot for a shield tuning.

have to check that with fitting spreadsheet. also, i dont think that its so hard to kill with a comparable skilled/equipped counterbot that is not a trojar or ictus.

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Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

All I am trying to say here is:

While the troiar mk1 is best suited to be a tanky slower tackle bot (when fitting for the tackle role), other bots can fit for the role and have similar effectiveness. If a group of assaults decides to converge on your tanky tackle, you will probably die regardless of whether you are a troiar mk1, chameleon mk1, or intakt mk1.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Last night I saw mr. Pit Fiend in his Troiar Mk2 survive 3 full volleys from my squad. 2 seths, gropho, 2 kains, artemis, tyrannos, baphomet and some other fun stuff.

In comparison, my seth alone 1-shots cameleons & 2-shots intakts.

http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=8746

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Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

intakt mk2s with shields and evasive modules?
intakts and camelions need to get into LoS to do their job?

Ville:2011-10-24 23:32:25
No no, we just stopped shooting at him after he got tackled so everyone could get on the kill mail.

very representative killmail for the topic.

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32 (edited by Karos 2011-10-25 17:23:47)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Annihilator wrote:

intakt mk2s with shields and evasive modules?
intakts and camelions need to get into LoS to do their job?

Ville:2011-10-24 23:32:25
No no, we just stopped shooting at him after he got tackled so everyone could get on the kill mail.

very representative killmail for the topic.


Troiar mk1/2 get a 50% recharge bonus (5% per level) from basic robotics, which though you can get the same hit size/sheild ratio on intakt/cameleon, you cannot get the same recharge which is the same as having about 3 t4 rechargers, all in all it means that peak recharge with max skills on troiar is about 35/sec (bit unsure of some of the math so this is a rough estimate) and on intakt and cameleon is about 9.29/sec or so.

Combined with say a sheild ratio of 0.15 or so, the intakt/cam need about 62 dps to kill, while the troiar needs about 233 dps to kill, this is on top of the fact that they have a hit size of between 1.6 and 1.9 so medium weapons and even some  light weapons will struggle to put about their normal amout of dps.

TDLR, you can't do the same thing with an intakt/cam mk2 than can you with a troiar mk2.

With 2 Seths and whatever else of course there will be enough dps to kill one, they are not invincible, just very tough, and near impossble to solo probably.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Annihilator wrote:

intakt mk2s with shields and evasive modules?
intakts and camelions need to get into LoS to do their job?

Ville:2011-10-24 23:32:25
No no, we just stopped shooting at him after he got tackled so everyone could get on the kill mail.

very representative killmail for the topic.

Yes, because a Troiar Mk2 shield survived 3 volleys from that many heavies & other stuff. smile

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Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

that trojar sucked.

A friend of mine has build a trojar mk2 that you wouldn't have killed ever with that squad. wink

the trojar is fine at mid extensions, but at higher extensions its truly overpowered. Sorry, i still had the accumulator recharge in mind before it got boosted back in beta... for a reason i still do not understand (back then it had a shield bonus instead of accumulator)

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Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Annihilator wrote:

that trojar sucked.

Agreed, my troiar sucks.

36 (edited by Karos 2011-10-27 00:59:13)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Annihilator wrote:

that trojar sucked.

A friend of mine has build a trojar mk2 that you wouldn't have killed ever with that squad. wink

the trojar is fine at mid extensions, but at higher extensions its truly overpowered. Sorry, i still had the accumulator recharge in mind before it got boosted back in beta... for a reason i still do not understand (back then it had a shield bonus instead of accumulator)

Are the leg slots Medium Aux Accumulator / Shield / Evasive? if not then i'm not sure of the improvement.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Annihilator wrote:

that trojar sucked.
A friend of mine has build a trojar mk2 that you wouldn't have killed ever with that squad. wink

Dear friend ... your friend would sucks too with his troiar too ... there is something that you don't see in that killmail mate ... some (not 1-2) nasty troiars that neuted Pit Fiends accu ...

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Karos wrote:

Are the leg slots Medium Aux Accumulator / Shield / Evasive? if not then i'm not sure of the improvement.

Yeah without lwf ... whatever ...

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Exomorph wrote:
Karos wrote:

Are the leg slots Medium Aux Accumulator / Shield / Evasive? if not then i'm not sure of the improvement.

Yeah without lwf ... whatever ...

Exactly, i don't expect it to tackle, he just said it couldn't be killed.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Karos wrote:
Exomorph wrote:
Karos wrote:

Are the leg slots Medium Aux Accumulator / Shield / Evasive? if not then i'm not sure of the improvement.

Yeah without lwf ... whatever ...

Exactly, i don't expect it to tackle, he just said it couldn't be killed.

It can't cant tackle, it probably can't drain or dps either. 

Doesn't sound very useful.  Doesn't even sound like anyone will use that build anyway so I don't see a problem with it.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Its amazing how distracting a small bot that has no offensive capability can draw DPS/Ewar away from bots that are actually dangerous.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Arga wrote:

Its amazing how distracting a small bot that has no offensive capability can draw DPS/Ewar away from bots that are actually dangerous.

yeah, so true...

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43 (edited by MoBIoS 2011-10-29 16:05:11)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Trojar toughness is its compensation for beeing very close range tackler. To throw on a tackle, it will need to go in as close as 195m. Has no headslots for countermessures etc...
It is far slower than a Cham with a range of about 245m.

It will need to tank a certain amount of dmg unlike a cam or intakt. If you are encountering a pilot with basic robotics lvl 10, energy management lvl 10 and accu expansion lvl 10 + improved shield technology lvl 10, he has spend a long time dedicating his skills on that. A player will have a hard time taking it down. This game is a rock, paper, scissor. If your squad has no counter for a trojars shield/ accu recharge rate, then you should re-think and not shout for a "re-balance".
Re-balance your squad or setup.

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Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

MoBIoS wrote:

Trojar toughness is its compensation for beeing very close range tackler. To throw on a tackle, it will need to go in as close as 195m. Has no headslots for countermessures etc...
It is far slower than a Cham with a range of about 245m.

It will need to tank a certain amount of dmg unlike a cam or intakt. If you are encountering a pilot with basic robotics lvl 10, energy management lvl 10 and accu expansion lvl 10 + improved shield technology lvl 10, he has spend a long time dedicating his skills on that. A player will have a hard time taking it down. This game is a rock, paper, scissor. If your squad has no counter for a trojars shield/ accu recharge rate, then you should re-think and not shout for a "re-balance".
Re-balance your squad or setup.

I said the same thing about ERP fitted mechs & Rep-tanked mechs... lol

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Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Syndic wrote:
MoBIoS wrote:

Trojar toughness is its compensation for beeing very close range tackler. To throw on a tackle, it will need to go in as close as 195m. Has no headslots for countermessures etc...
It is far slower than a Cham with a range of about 245m.

It will need to tank a certain amount of dmg unlike a cam or intakt. If you are encountering a pilot with basic robotics lvl 10, energy management lvl 10 and accu expansion lvl 10 + improved shield technology lvl 10, he has spend a long time dedicating his skills on that. A player will have a hard time taking it down. This game is a rock, paper, scissor. If your squad has no counter for a trojars shield/ accu recharge rate, then you should re-think and not shout for a "re-balance".
Re-balance your squad or setup.

I said the same thing about ERP fitted mechs & Rep-tanked mechs... lol

Syndic said the same thing about ERP fitted mechs & Rep-tanked mechs... lol


Seriously though.  To get the 245m demob range the camelion/intakt would have to sacrifice their ewar capability.

The main point isn't about tackling range its about what happens after a bot is tackled and odds are it will be tackled regardless of 195 or 245m range because most things are considerably slower than ewar bots.

What "should" happen after a bot is tackled is subjective.  You could argue that once someone is tackled they should be forced to engage the main enemy force even if it turns up in 15min.  You could also argue that they should be able to get away 90% of the time.  I would prefer it if tackling was a risky buisness for the tackler and would not be sustainable for more than about 1min unless more people turned up.  Having said that, I love driving tackling bots and the more challenging it is the more I will enjoy it.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Kaldenines wrote:

Seriously though.  To get the 245m demob range the camelion/intakt would have to sacrifice their ewar capability.

I beg your pardon?

What do you think demob is?
This is clearly a fail statement.
Range is your defense. btw.

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Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

^
Range extenders take up head slots which could be used for ECM/suppressors.  These slots are not taken up by neutralizers.

+1
-Confucius

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Kaldenines wrote:

^
Range extenders take up head slots which could be used for ECM/suppressors.  These slots are not taken up by neutralizers.

But neutralizers are not something that keep you alive while tackling someone.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Sundial wrote:
Kaldenines wrote:

^
Range extenders take up head slots which could be used for ECM/suppressors.  These slots are not taken up by neutralizers.

But neutralizers are not something that keep you alive while tackling someone.

Drainers do, and if you can neut the enemy to zero, then he can't shoot back, pretty sure that helps with tackling.

50 (edited by Sundial 2011-10-30 23:23:42)

Re: Trojars take the fun out of tackling

Karos wrote:
Sundial wrote:
Kaldenines wrote:

^
Range extenders take up head slots which could be used for ECM/suppressors.  These slots are not taken up by neutralizers.

But neutralizers are not something that keep you alive while tackling someone.

Drainers do, and if you can neut the enemy to zero, then he can't shoot back, pretty sure that helps with tackling.

All that energy comes from your shield though at least when neuting. Yeah you could fit drainers, of course at expense of speed and neutralizing capability and they are very short range / LOS dependant.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.