Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

i tell noobs:
if you want 0815 - go blue
if your a masochist, go yellow
if you know what you are doing - go green

the game is not old enough yet to complain about crosspeccing. in your initial post you mentioned how many days - well, add all other things you need as a basic before you can even think about "maxing" two trees, then its still time for the mortars to come. big_smile

I dont know what it is, but whenever is see a no-name starting in this forums in balancing, its always about missiles.
FOTM seems to be "missiles users are penalised"

a few month ago, someone here was all about "missiles are IMBA, they need to be nerfed"


god damn, laser suck!

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

Annihilator wrote:

I dont know what it is, but whenever is see a no-name starting in this forums in balancing, its always about missiles.
FOTM seems to be "missiles users are penalised"

god damn, laser suck!

well this "no-name" has lots of names in game. Try understanding the topic instead of attacking someone for who they are or what Corp there in. Honestly if you payed attention to my posts you would know exactly who I am. But that’s not the point, the topic of the thread is if the skill trees are balanced.

There is a corporate dialogue section for personal attacks. Try to be constructive and leave the politics out of it.

In this business, by the time you realize you're in trouble, it's too late to save yourself. Unless you're running scared all the time, you're gone.
~Bill Gates~

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

Beasty wrote:

If the weapon classes were to be separated then it would add definition to your choice as a pilot. If you decide to pilot blue then you should be committed to piloting that race, the same goes for green and yellow.  I think it would be a major improvement to the game if this was the case.
I just find it silly that at this early stage in the game people are ably to “effectively” pilot two different “factions” of robots while doing large amounts of DPS.

I may be in the minority but honestly this game is not going to go very far by lumping so many skill trees together. The DEV’s should be trying to add “depth”, add “complexity” (not complication) and increase the life of the game. NOT to make is some type of arcade game.

Just listen to general and the help channels and you will find many new players being directly and indirectly told that if they want to be a DPS character they will need to be blue or yellow. When a question like this can be boiled down to just pick turrets it shows the lack of depth or complexity in the game.

Short: more options are better, 1 size fits all turret skills = not good for long run of the game.

Not a theory but a “coming soon” practice.

IF you find the current system "enough as it is" I can understand wanting things easy. But if this game is to last more than a year or two (and increase the player base) there needs to be core changes to the Skill system to allow for more diversity.

stEVE is going on for quite a few years, they have 3 turret weapon types sharing base skills and again a separated missile tree (ok they do have drones). the same complaints are present there as well. however the game functions quite well.

maybe splitting the adanced weapons to 2 skills (long and short) would help, but then you's have to create skills for missile ammo and not launchers.

79 (edited by Annihilator 2011-10-18 20:29:30)

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

Hugh Ruka wrote:

....

stEVE is going on for quite a few years, they have 3 turret weapon types sharing base skills and again a separated missile tree (ok they do have drones). the same complaints are present there as well. however the game functions quite well.

maybe splitting the adanced weapons to 2 skills (long and short) would help, but then you's have to create skills for missile ammo and not launchers.

The Reasons it works over there:

  • Lasers there in Eve are non-ammo type weapons. Just capacitor consumption
    you convert damage types a bit by fitting crystals into your laser turrets, with the better ones (Perp: mission ammos) are losing durability over time/use.

  • EM guns there are called "hybrid"-weapons, half ammo, half power consumption

  • Projectile only weapons, not consuming power at all, just Ammo

  • one of the other major differences is: In eve not all weapons can deal all damage types from what i have read, only missiles

  • shield/hull tanking with energy weapons working better vs. shields, and projectiles better vs. hull AFAIK

Another thing is the peak recharge point in EvE is better placed then here in Perp

*edited for better readability, less bashing

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

Annihilator wrote:
Hugh Ruka wrote:

....

stEVE is going on for quite a few years, they have 3 turret weapon types sharing base skills and again a separated missile tree (ok they do have drones). the same complaints are present there as well. however the game functions quite well.

maybe splitting the adanced weapons to 2 skills (long and short) would help, but then you's have to create skills for missile ammo and not launchers.

The Reasons it works over there:

  • Lasers there in Eve are non-ammo type weapons. Just capacitor consumption
    you convert damage types a bit by fitting crystals into your laser turrets, with the better ones (Perp: mission ammos) are losing durability over time/use.

  • EM guns there are called "hybrid"-weapons, half ammo, half power consumption

  • Projectile only weapons, not consuming power at all, just Ammo

  • one of the other major differences is: In eve not all weapons can deal all damage types from what i have read, only missiles

  • shield/hull tanking with energy weapons working better vs. shields, and projectiles better vs. hull AFAIK

Another thing is the peak recharge point in EvE is better placed then here in Perp

*edited for better readability, less bashing

I know the differences (there are even more of them then you stated). Been there for 5 years. However my point was, the same skill tree complaints are there as well for ages (or at least since Cold War expansion). so same situation as in this thread.

There is technicaly no problem. Just the greener grass envy.

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

technically, crosspeccing between all turret variants doesn't give a big enough advantage over missiles:
Im a Laser user, thers no real reason to train EM guns, as the advantage they would grant me (more kinetic damage then thermal) is negated by the missing robot bonus. Also, i can get that with Firearms.

Firearms are the only issue i really see with it skill-wise
- and after all, my first post in this topic was: Implement ballistic firearm, topic  /closed.

btw: once upon a time i had suggested that the current medium machineguns (fast-fire-gattlings) should not use chance-to-hit formula of turrrets, and respective extension, but have a granted hit,  like missiles and using the seismics extension / formula for damage calculation.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

Annihilator wrote:

technically, crosspeccing between all turret variants doesn't give a big enough advantage over missiles:
Im a Laser user, thers no real reason to train EM guns, as the advantage they would grant me (more kinetic damage then thermal) is negated by the missing robot bonus. Also, i can get that with Firearms.

Firearms are the only issue i really see with it skill-wise
- and after all, my first post in this topic was: Implement ballistic firearm, topic  /closed.

btw: once upon a time i had suggested that the current medium machineguns (fast-fire-gattlings) should not use chance-to-hit formula of turrrets, and respective extension, but have a granted hit,  like missiles and using the seismics extension / formula for damage calculation.

you mean implementing a spray and pray mechanic ? that would work with shotgun type firearms better.

the missing bonus is a problem for everybody for secondary weapon systems. I am all for ballistic firearms, but those would be AoE ones.

83 (edited by Cobalt 2011-10-19 17:57:55)

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

Annihilator wrote:

Im a Laser user, thers no real reason to train EM guns, as the advantage they would grant me (more kinetic damage then thermal) is negated by the missing robot bonus.

On an assault bot/mech that is.... What about Ewars that dont get weapon bonus?  That makes me laugh how the debate has cycled over 2 pages returning back at the beginning...
I wont argue anymore on this case seeing how peoples dont read clearly all the answers before writing their "so smart" explanations and arguments...

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

If you have an Ewar bot, and you fit it with as many weapons and weapons tuners as it will take, you now have a bot that is bad at ewar and bad at dps when compared to a bot that is specialized in either.

If the arguement is that you have a specialized ewar bot, that can also have a weapon, that trivial amount of dps is not going to be greatly enhanced by the ability to choose between magnetics or lasers even with all the turret and faction weapon skills maxed out.

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

Arga wrote:

If you have an Ewar bot, and you fit it with as many weapons and weapons tuners as it will take, you now have a bot that is bad at ewar and bad at dps when compared to a bot that is specialized in either.

If the arguement is that you have a specialized ewar bot, that can also have a weapon, that trivial amount of dps is not going to be greatly enhanced by the ability to choose between magnetics or lasers even with all the turret and faction weapon skills maxed out.

T4 EM/Gauss guns get most of their damage from the weapon bonus, not from skills.

I would hardly call that bad, just not optimal.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

I was just about to edit my post, because I was all hyped on coffee and it came out more confrontational then I intended.

There is no right or wrong answer, it is what it is.

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

Cobalt - maybe we are running in circles here - now the question:

IF im training into EWAR mechs... how much EP do i have left over to crosspec into all kinds of turrets? As far as i remember, training into a Vagabond for maximum ECM efficiency takes several month,  not counting any weapon skills of any kind. So this kind of argumentation is kinda... flawed.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

Would it be possible to get some input from devs about the original post? Or the devs usually don't get involved in these discussions?

Re: Turret vs Missile Skill Trees

Annihilator wrote:

Cobalt - maybe we are running in circles here - now the question:

IF im training into EWAR mechs... how much EP do i have left over to crosspec into all kinds of turrets? As far as i remember, training into a Vagabond for maximum ECM efficiency takes several month,  not counting any weapon skills of any kind. So this kind of argumentation is kinda... flawed.



ELECTRONICS:                                        200726

Accelerated target locking lv10
Complex jamming electronics lv10
Data processing lv10
Jamming electronics lv10
Long distance EW lv10
Long range targeting lv10
Optimized electronics lv5
Sensor connection lv3
Targeting lv5



ENGINEERING:                                        34311

Accumulator expansion lv5
Energy management lv5
Reactor expansion lv10



WEAPON USAGE:                                     18764

Critical hit lv5
General firing lv5
Improved falloff lv5
Precision firing lv5
Rapid firing lv5
Sharpshooting lv5
Target analysis lv5



ROBOT CONTROL:                                    194714

Advanced robotic lv10
Basic robotic lv4
Navigation lv10
Nuimqol robot control lv9
Spec.ops.robot control lv5

TOTAL:                                                     448515

With that skills you can pilot a vagabond MK2 and maxxed ECM/suppressor strenght/range

An EA account possess around 515k

So you still got 66k to choose from

Basic 5 + Advanced 10 cost:

magnetostatic  = 53k or lv9       = 31k
kinematics        = 40k                 = 23k
optics               = 53K                 = 31k

You can then have at least two medium turret weapons at lv 9.

Really you should take the problem the other way around. When i have maxxed all my ECM skills + enough fitting/accu, where do i spend my EPs?  If i choose to spend in weapons, i have 3 choices if im on turret side (vagabond).  I have only one if im missile side (Ictus).

I dont really think that need balancing, just i want that everyone admit that this game is complex enough to have cross speccing and "hybrids" not totally useless.