Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Personaly i playing this game because i want something more than healer, tank, mage.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Alexadar wrote:

Personaly i playing this game because i want something more than healer, tank, mage.

You've just summed up internet robots in three words.. And you're not wrong..


Now I am worried.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Line wrote:
Medved wrote:

killovequoting.

I've already said that to Hunter in other thread he raised. Go meet some young thugs alone and tell em you're old and big and mastered in martial arts etc and then just try to tank theyr bats and knuckles.

What does that mean? No matter how much time and nics and eps did you spent - if you're going solo against a group, there is not so much difference. Piloting may help, but thats your skills that can't be balanced.

Also: i you just want t say you're oldvet, maybe it will be much easy to implement some golden borders around your nick than change balance special for you.

Yeah, nothing to say about post - say something about poster. All love to my persona u can say in private.
Even in group vs group battle there is smth that called "focus fire"/ It makes u feel alone vs all, and (heavy + slow + nodps + fukken expensive) * tank must stay alive.

Enjoy ur sandbox, and enjoy ur %islandname% while u can.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Medved wrote:

This not counter-strike with short rounds or any-stupid-mmo-x1kk-pvp-server. Remember about ecenomic, time spent, etc. I cant just run away from per to ur eve, form corp, complete level 0 missions and start to hunt down Titans in lowsec.
Newbies must suffer. Want to make game more friendly to novices? Make it not by nerfing oldfags. If im spending year in game and billion nic i want to see my benefits. Not +0.002% hurr durr dps, but well tanked big mech with mastercrafted weapon and armor.
If devs dont give this oldfag feeling to us, vet would leave the game. After month or two neewbies would leave too coz them dont want to reach crap endgame.

So basically you want the game to be completely imbalanced so you can WTFPWN anyone who hasn't been in game as long as you? A Heavy Mech is in no way comparable to a Titan in Eve, those kinds of things don't exist yet, vets are going to continue to get their new toys as larger robots are added to the game. Yes, this isn't counter-strike, etc. It's also not WoW where you have to get to level one million or whatever and farm purple gear to be awesome in battlegrounds, the endgame in a sandbox type game is based around sucessful player corps doing whatever it is they want to do, not collecting uber gear.

105 (edited by Mara Kaid 2011-08-30 16:57:26)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Hunter was raging about this today, he saw a heavy mech that couldn't tank 5 mechs, with ewar support!!! Inconceivable!!!

http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=6462

106 (edited by Grim Faust 2011-08-30 17:24:08)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

The comments on that kill made me lol.

I think a poignant part of a sandbox is not over-balancing too much. I like fair fights as much as the next person, but in a sandbox, fair isn't something that should be forced. To understand more of what I'm thinking you'd have to look at the almost limitless capabilities of stockpiling gear and bots. A corp that's been around a while has a dramatic advantage over newer corps because of their ability to draw in to their supplies and basically use attrition to grind new players to the ground. This sort of domination is on a different scale, sure, but it's still the same concept and there's nothing done to balance that. If you want to be picky and make things balanced on a micro-scale, I'd think you would have to on the larger scheme of things too. Just as a good sized squad couldn't deal with 1 T4 ERP fit mech before, there's corps that likely can't be touched by an alliance of lesser corps. That aspect of the game is pretty much bulletproof, it's pretty hard to lose power in this game to anyone who hasn't been around as long.

I did say before though when M2S was in power, only something catastrophic would stop them. Lo and behold... But that's the same with anyone in power in this game, it snowballs. So if we aren't limiting that factor that can be completely overbearing to the nth degree, why should  fits really be much a concern? If anyone can build and use them, the problem is only on what your corp can afford through attrition. The kicker was that the ERP fit was counterable before the nerfs started happening, you just had to have the assets to do it, just as you needed the assets to fit an ERP properly. If you can't get your own FotM fits to compete, you likely can't afford to compete with the guys that can afford to if things were toned down anyway. They'll just use something else and still have more and you'll still never change the power polarizations unless again, something catastrophic happens to the entities in question. Maybe we should have catastrophic failures on mods? tongue

Balancing a sandbox is never as definitive as most would like to think. It's almost counterintuitive to the core idea of a sandbox at times even. Just my thoughts.

Take the long way around back to square one
Today we're just outlaws out on the run

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

What you're doing here is talking about two very different concepts and then talking as if they're the same thing. If corps and players choose to stockpile equipment to have an advantage, should that be nerfed? Of course not, the fundamental idea of a game like this is player actions have consequences. You still take note of how the players play the game and make changes to make sure your game world is an exciting place where things CAN change. But this was not what people were talking about in this thread, the question here was balance at the equipment level, and I can't believe anyone would seriously think some kind of balance there was a bad thing. Thats kind of the point of a sandbox game like this, ultimately PLAYER ACTIONS make the difference not gear. As a new player should I be able to grab ten others and take over beta? No, but I should be able to go and PvP (still with a disadvantage in EP and gear) and through the use of tactics and player skill have a shot at doing something useful.

108 (edited by Grim Faust 2011-08-30 20:17:07)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

I have nothing against balance whatsoever, I just thought it was an interesting dichotomy. Be it power in an engagement or power in more absolute terms over corporate measure, they're both things that need equilibrium to have a competitive atmosphere. You can have fair fights, but when your fights don't mean anything on the grander scale of things, it seems kind of petty almost. Right now with the way things are, engagements mean nothing for the most part. Throwing yourself at a pre-nerf ERP fit is almost as tactful as pitting a corp with lesser stature against a matured one and almost endless stockpiles. Eventually the point will be reached when you're seeing that futility of engaging that was there all along,  just in the same way it was to try solo an ERP fit. It's just on a larger scale, those things are harder to discern because they're not glaring in your bots face and shooting you.

For the record though, again, balance is fine and that ERP fit was already counterable. I remember when Lemon first brought it to foomland. Sure it took us 10+ pilots and a while to grind him down, but isn't it fair? Our raiding party probably wasn't worth half of what his fit was. One of his T4 armor tunings back then was worth at least 4-5 of our t1 fit assaults alone. Yet we still killed him, without any neuts. If we actually had the monetary backing that he had, we could have fielded ewar and took him down with 2-3 pilots in a fraction of the time, without any risk to ourselves. Hell, you could even kamikaze his cash cow with a 4-5 mill mech. Do you think that's balanced? Is it ok to neglect the worth of a build or the fact that it has a counter just because of the premise that you have to use more people? Suicide with a cheap fit a few times and I'm sure his loss of 50m or more will pale in comparison to your loss of maybe 10% of his. You'd have to be dumb to keep walking in to that and eventually run out of cash and there's no way of stopping it really. That's the consequence of the actions of using such a stacked fit, it's expensive as hell to replace and countered by lesser than equivalent logistics.

What's done is done though, ERP is a shadow of what it used to be. I personally never used it, but it was certainly used against myself and my corp in a very destructive manner. Yet, with a little cash and tact we could have taken care of it. Trouble is, we were fresh faced and poor and our enemies quantative assets stopped us, not their build.

Take the long way around back to square one
Today we're just outlaws out on the run

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

the balancing change missed to lower the production costs of the ERP significantly...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

110

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Dazamin wrote:

No, but I should be able to go and PvP (still with a disadvantage in EP and gear) and through the use of tactics and player skill have a shot at doing something useful.

Where the leway in this arguement arises in 'How much disadvantage/advantage for EP and gear".

The game is still new, but the gap between day 1 player EP and day 365 player EP is fast approaching.

This is a persistant world, so players that actually play the game are going to get more powerful as they go, more EP, more NIC (better gear), and more experience.

There's a lot of talk about wanting to get and keep new players, but eventually those new players will be 'vetern players'. If there's only a minimal gap between day 1 and day 180 what is going to keep those day 180 players coming back?

If after 6 months of pvp, 100's of millions of NIC on bot replacements and hours and hours roaming, a group of 3 new players can still gank me, then what's the point? Or 4, 5 or 6 new players?

Yes, new players should be able to find some kind of pvp, but even in WOW level '30' players know that if they run up against a level '50' player, they should run. Just because levels aren't called out in this game, it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a insurmountable gap between new players and vetern players.

But the key here, is that new players will get to the vetern stage, so while a 30 day chracter may have no chance against a 180 day character, a 180 day character should be able to overcome a 360 day character.

tl;dr - Dont try to balance 1-90 day characters against 180+ day characters. Gaps can and will exist because it's a persistant world, if they don't. If new players need to understand the genre of game they are entering, not change the game to meet thier expectations.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Yeah, but in wow you can eventually catch up. In perpetuum, the veteran player will ALWAYS have the advantage.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Goblin wrote:

Yeah, but in wow you can eventually catch up. In perpetuum, the veteran player will ALWAYS have the advantage.

actually, not much... its more the equip and your fitting skills. if someone spares you the equip, and you concentrate mostly on equip extensions, you are playing with the big toys a few month. The Veterans advantage then is that he can dock and adjust his ride easier to kill you. (switching from laser to EM guns or firearms, while you are stuck in one weapon class)

if you didnt notice, the topic is about the price difference, at least in title...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

113 (edited by Dazamin 2011-08-30 21:23:14)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Yes you do catch up to a large extent, because of the way extensions scale, and I would argue that for good balance gear should scale in much the same way, diminishing returns. In "the other game" at the top end of gear you find a huge price tag for a fairly small bonus in a lot of cases, you want your edge? you pay for it. This, unlike WoW or WAR or whatever is not a level based game, and I would say any player who wants that would be better off playing those games. Here, everyone plays together, there isn't lvl 20 content, level 30 content, etc, theres just content, new players have to coexist with veteran players, and if you shut new players out from being able to compete in ANY way, then they will just leave. The central point of this game is PvP and territory control, so just locking players out of that completely for six months is a bad idea. As for gear specifically, why as a vet player would you need your gear to be so much better than any new player? You already have EP advantages, NIC and experience on your side, wheres the fun in just pwning stuff? Isn't genuine competition more fun?
Also, getting into a Heavy Mech for example isn't "levelling up" its just another option available to you as a player, something different that performs a different role, that is the real advantage of being a vet, versatility.

tl:dr This isn't WoW, and if you want to be uber top level guy with epic weapons, there are plenty of those games around.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Annihilator wrote:

the balancing change missed to lower the production costs of the ERP significantly...

this

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Arga, you're basically saying a new player has to wait 180 days to participate in PvP in a meaningful way. This is BS.

When I entered EVE a few years ago I considered it a great feature that a group of newbs can take on a "veteran" and have a chance to win. Without waiting for half a year. WIthout grinding through 50+ levels. Most games have it wrong, luckily, Perpetuum is not among them.

116

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Mark Zima wrote:

Arga, you're basically saying a new player has to wait 180 days to participate in PvP in a meaningful way. This is BS.

No no no no no, and basically no.

I'm saying that 0-90 day players can't expect to go out and kill 180 day players in PVP roams.

Day 1 players can go out and participate in PVP in an arkhe. Will they contribute in a 'Meaningful way', no, if by meaningful you mean something that acutally uses modules or extensions. I would argue that same day 1 player that's sitting on the gate and warns about a squad doing a pincer movement absolutely contributed in a meaninful way.

By measuring the level of participation of new players by a DPS meter reading (for example), its actually YOU that is limiting thier measure of Meaningful.

I would also argue that a BLOB of new players could indeed kill a "vet", but again that's not what we're talking about. The arguement that i'm referring to is 2 or 3 new players going out and being unable to kill a couple vets. Are those 2-3 players totally shut off from meaningful pvp because there exists a GAP in EP and gear that doesn't allow them to kill that group? NO, they are not.

At issue is that fact that there is a huge GAP in the type of players. There are new players and there are vets, there are very few in-between. That's is there's the population of players from EA and Launch, and then there's the recent Bitter-vet influx. So, when new players go out, thier most likely going to run into other new players, which btw are mostly all in the same corp and not shooting at each other, or they are going to run into players with 3 or 4 times thier EP and T4 fit.

This type of thread always opens up right around this time, when players are starting to feel like veterns after a few months of play, but then find that they are still not advanced as they think.

If you necro back, you'll see the same thing happend in March, when the first wave of non-EA subscribers hit about the 60 day mark. Those that stayed are now vets and are able to fight the EA accounts on a fairly even keel. The same will happen here, the bitter vets that stay until the 180 mark will see that it does level out around that point, and they can be competitive against most of the server.

tl;dr - Don't put words in my mouth to try to make an invalid point.

117 (edited by Hunter 2011-08-31 03:37:07)

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Dear all!

I want to tell that update was not good for me. I don't like it. Let's be fair. Now actually killed tanks and have strengthened a damage. But it is pleasant for some other players.

Recently I have come to a conclusion that the balance will be always (exactly in the game). People are able to adapt. They will simply use other robots and the equipment. The balance will be even if create any super class (the tank or DPS). All will simply use this class and to aspire to it (now all choose DPS).

Disbalance in other (in realisation of updates): People have wasted time, have spent experience points and resources. Some have resetted the accounts to make all correctly for old balance. And now the balance has been changed globally and without preventions.
About it there was a prevention for a month, that people could prepare? No...
For this change the reasons have been named?
Examination has been made?


That is have actually taken away a candy from one child and would give to another instead of to give a candy to both. Players were not ready and there was no compensation, as result - that reaction.

Let me remind to developers that we play in an official release. The release should be stable. We pay money for game (even small), so please make a game and change is more appropriate.

In normal projects, such rebalancing is not done more often than once in half-year with following notice.

Everyone should understand that any balancing generates only new a disbalance.

Сайт корпорации: www.chaos-online.ru
Раздел приема в корпорацию: http://www.chaos-online.ru/foru....-perpetuum/

118

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Wonder why everyone is picking on hunter.

1) One Heavy costs 56 times more then a assault of the same color
2) One Heavy isnt able to survive 56 assault at the same time

If you take those numbers then you have to admit that:

Heavys are too expensive/Lights and Assaults are too cheap
or
Heavys are underpowered/Lights and Assaults are too strong

Either way, Hunter is right and something needs to change.
The balancing issue is logical and obvious.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

lol this game would be desolate if it took anywhere near 50 assaults to kill a mech.

Nobody would ever pilot one either. Might as well remove them from the game at that point.

120

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

AgY wrote:

Wonder why everyone is picking on hunter.

1) One Heavy costs 56 times more then a assault of the same color
2) One Heavy isnt able to survive 56 assault at the same time

If you take those numbers then you have to admit that:

Heavys are too expensive/Lights and Assaults are too cheap
or
Heavys are underpowered/Lights and Assaults are too strong

Either way, Hunter is right and something needs to change.
The balancing issue is logical and obvious.

You just forgot that for newbie corp/producer it will me more harder and expensive to build an 56 assault than for a big vet corp. So it's prolly not 56.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

more harder you say

122

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

And expensive, yes.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

As I said before, you don't balance by cost, eg. if it costs 10x more it should be 10x better. "Upgrades" should always follow the principle of diminishing returns, ie, you pay larger and larger amounts (NIC, Mats, Whatever) for the same or smaller bonus as you move up the ladder. There is of course the obvious issue there that a SOLO Heavy SHOULD be vulnerable to a number of small bots, that is a legitimate counter to the Heavy Mech, if Heavies were effectively invulnerable to anything smaller, then why bother having other bots? Getting a Heavy is not winning Perpetuum, its just another bot with its own set of strengths and weaknesses, one of which is being vulnerable if caught solo by a bunch of bots to small for it to hit effectively.

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Dazamin wrote:

As I said before, you don't balance by cost, eg. if it costs 10x more it should be 10x better. "Upgrades" should always follow the principle of diminishing returns, ie, you pay larger and larger amounts (NIC, Mats, Whatever) for the same or smaller bonus as you move up the ladder. There is of course the obvious issue there that a SOLO Heavy SHOULD be vulnerable to a number of small bots, that is a legitimate counter to the Heavy Mech, if Heavies were effectively invulnerable to anything smaller, then why bother having other bots? Getting a Heavy is not winning Perpetuum, its just another bot with its own set of strengths and weaknesses, one of which is being vulnerable if caught solo by a bunch of bots to small for it to hit effectively.

It is possible. As variant, consumption of accumulator can depend on the size of the enemy. For example, if demobilizers can consume battery like maskers, then small robot will not stop the heavy robot. The same with neutraliziers and ECM.

Actually many ways for balancing.

Everyone should understand that any balancing generates only new a disbalance.

Сайт корпорации: www.chaos-online.ru
Раздел приема в корпорацию: http://www.chaos-online.ru/foru....-perpetuum/

Re: This game became full of cheap stuff

Hunter wrote:
Dazamin wrote:

As I said before, you don't balance by cost, eg. if it costs 10x more it should be 10x better. "Upgrades" should always follow the principle of diminishing returns, ie, you pay larger and larger amounts (NIC, Mats, Whatever) for the same or smaller bonus as you move up the ladder. There is of course the obvious issue there that a SOLO Heavy SHOULD be vulnerable to a number of small bots, that is a legitimate counter to the Heavy Mech, if Heavies were effectively invulnerable to anything smaller, then why bother having other bots? Getting a Heavy is not winning Perpetuum, its just another bot with its own set of strengths and weaknesses, one of which is being vulnerable if caught solo by a bunch of bots to small for it to hit effectively.

It is possible. As variant, consumption of accumulator can depend on the size of the enemy. For example, if demobilizers can consume battery like maskers, then small robot will not stop the heavy robot. The same with neutraliziers and ECM.

Actually many ways for balancing.

If I understand what you're saying, and I apologise if I'm wrong, you're arguing for Light Bot mods to be LESS effective against a Heavy Mech? Thats not balancing. Solo Heavy Mech being taken down by multiple Light Bots, Balanced. Solo Heavy killing all Lights easily, Not Balanced. Heavy Mech pilot bringing a friend or two and owning the 7-8 man light squad, Again Balanced.