You are not logged in. Please login or register.
I personally think allowing alts into the Corp to simply allow them access to the Corp market is a bad idea. Also it then shows that being in the Corp I'm not getting any cheaper prices on my gear, and the mining / kernel donations are feeding alts in other Corps... WTF
Soz i hope i read all this right
IVE SAID IT B4 ILL SAY IT AGAIN! the market right now is just waiting for a few 100% industrial corps to take full advantage of it. If you have the time & miners you can & will make an absolute killing on the market.
IF you dont like how the market is... Fix it. Coz to be bluntly honest. Crying about it here wont making anything better.
Really? When 50% of the player base isn't using the market, the other 45% are in self-suffcient corps, leaving 5% to make a killing on.
No. We'll keep putting items into the open market like we have been for 6 months, and sell them to those willing to buy them, but read the *** thread before you go spewing crap telling indy corps to "L2P" and "stfu".
Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:IVE SAID IT B4 ILL SAY IT AGAIN! the market right now is just waiting for a few 100% industrial corps to take full advantage of it. If you have the time & miners you can & will make an absolute killing on the market.
IF you dont like how the market is... Fix it. Coz to be bluntly honest. Crying about it here wont making anything better.
Really? When 50% of the player base isn't using the market, the other 45% are in self-suffcient corps, leaving 5% to make a killing on.
No. We'll keep putting items into the open market like we have been for 6 months, and sell them to those willing to buy them, but read the *** thread before you go spewing crap telling indy corps to "L2P" and "stfu".
I use to sell on the internal corp, now I sell on the open market, in 4 terminals, 38 sell orders and have 20 production lines running everyday. I went from makeing a mil or 2 a day on the internal market to clearing 10 mil a day on the open market. So yea build it and it will sell, so you "stfu".
Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:IVE SAID IT B4 ILL SAY IT AGAIN! the market right now is just waiting for a few 100% industrial corps to take full advantage of it. If you have the time & miners you can & will make an absolute killing on the market.
IF you dont like how the market is... Fix it. Coz to be bluntly honest. Crying about it here wont making anything better.
Really? When 50% of the player base isn't using the market, the other 45% are in self-suffcient corps, leaving 5% to make a killing on.
No. We'll keep putting items into the open market like we have been for 6 months, and sell them to those willing to buy them, but read the *** thread before you go spewing crap telling indy corps to "L2P" and "stfu".
um... ok first off: apparently you might have reading issues so ill say this in DA BESTIST engrish i can.
1. You assume i havnt read this thread. remember what assume stands for?
2. your assumption that 95% of the player base dont use the market is flat out wrong.
3. I Never told the collective player base that is indy to as you so eloquently said ..
"L2P" and "stfu".
what i did say is crying about **** never gets things fixed.
4. If pointing out the bleeding obvious that the market is ripe for more indy based corps to make a profit thus seeding more items onto the market thus creating competition thus bring prices down is in any way spewing crap. well then what can i say....
Perhaps you read my post too quickly, because there's no where in there that _I'm_ telling anyone to stfu.
I'm pleased to hear that your making money on the open market, that's terrific. I also don't say that you can't make money, or I guess I wouldn't be able to keep it up for 6 mo.
However, there's no 'easy' NIC to be had. Moving your goods around and keeping up market sell orders is hard work, as well as gathreing mats for 20 lines.
10M/day is btw, not a killing.
If anyone, you should reread Obi's post, inferring that indy is easy and if were not making a killing it's because we are doing it wrong and should quit complaining.
meaningless crap
That about sums it up.
Perhaps you read my post too quickly, because there's no where in there that _I'm_ telling anyone to stfu.
I'm pleased to hear that your making money on the open market, that's terrific. I also don't say that you can't make money, or I guess I wouldn't be able to keep it up for 6 mo.
However, there's no 'easy' NIC to be had. Moving your goods around and keeping up market sell orders is hard work, as well as gathreing mats for 20 lines.
10M/day is btw, not a killing.
If anyone, you should reread Obi's post, inferring that indy is easy and if were not making a killing it's because we are doing it wrong and should quit complaining.
I actually didnt say that you had said to the indy community to stfu, yet again a miss read.
Also nowhere did i state i engaged in market trading. its not my thing other than selling ore i mine that my corp doesnt buy.
Indy in this game IS HARD or at least time consuming. and your right 10mill/day isnt a killing but i do know of market traders that make MUCH more each day. a smart indy guy will know where the cash is to be made 
Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:meaningless crap
"i cant take open criticism"
I like PIE... apple PIE more so. apparently your pie is a bit sour.
NeX is like crabs, when you see one there be sure more jumping around. 
Being able to generate some random amount of NIC a day, month or year doesn't mean there isn't a fundamental problem with the market, only that there are ways to work it regardless.
The problem as I see it comes down to a big game market model being shoved into a small population game. That's it. Entire production cycle, from research to prototyping to manufacturing to sale would work fine in a large game with a sizable chunk of population falling outside of special handshake market clubs and self sufficient corps. This game just isn't there yet. Internal markets, high taxes, limited buy/sell orders, etc. simply compound the problem by further depleting the pool of available buyers and sellers. Add the kernel research cluster**** and you have what we have now - slow, understocked market with only a few select areas that allow for fast turnover. It's workable for more advanced producers, outright punishing to newbies and frustrating to those in between.
To keep the thread on track, despite the attempt to divert it into a troll thread.
Shadow markets exist because the game mechanics allow it. Either this is intended and will continue, and become the 'norm' and marketing corps will use it to bypass taxing, or there will be some kind of patch released.
"shadow markets" as you call them are still effected by the public market to some extent.
My discount bulk orders are effected by the public and internal markets.
I personally think allowing alts into the Corp to simply allow them access to the Corp market is a bad idea. Also it then shows that being in the Corp I'm not getting any cheaper prices on my gear, and the mining / kernel donations are feeding alts in other Corps... WTF
Soz i hope i read all this right
Don't forget that they're also in there to sell to us. They have tech, we have tech. Mutual exchange program.
As far as cheap, you can tell which stuff is subsidized straight off the bat. Anything several hundred k lower than prevailing prices eats corp nic. We need more mission runners to keep up with it, and more people donating mods to be converted.
But straight up with a lower tax rate we'd be getting good deals on the open market far more frequently and could save a bundle on subsidizing indy that could be spent on fun stuff for the corp. Like lower taxes and pvp reimbursement and the like.
Being able to generate some random amount of NIC a day, month or year doesn't mean there isn't a fundamental problem with the market, only that there are ways to work it regardless.
The problem as I see it comes down to a big game market model being shoved into a small population game. That's it. Entire production cycle, from research to prototyping to manufacturing to sale would work fine in a large game with a sizable chunk of population falling outside of special handshake market clubs and self sufficient corps. This game just isn't there yet. Internal markets, high taxes, limited buy/sell orders, etc. simply compound the problem by further depleting the pool of available buyers and sellers. Add the kernel research cluster**** and you have what we have now - slow, understocked market with only a few select areas that allow for fast turnover. It's workable for more advanced producers, outright punishing to newbies and frustrating to those in between.
Yeah you are pretty right about this.
The system, oddly enough, needed less granularity. It would have worked better that way, especially if t2 and niani were top of the line and the other stuff released when numbers were hitting 1k nightly. Might have burned out some vets but would have meant a more fluid landscape (market and pvp). As is scale is rewarded above all, but scale doesn't exist yet.
Yes, having T4 available too soon was actually identified early on, which is where the kernel nerf came from. From beta, I think the devs felt that it would take a lot-lot longer then 3 months for anyone to complete the kernel tree. Epitron was also supposed to be the bottleneck for T4 production, but they also underestimated how much material a corporation could also gather, so they added norgalis too; they havn't made any other changes to T4 production so maybe they are happy with the current rate.
But, history aside, I still feel the problem with stocking the market with T3+ gear is what has already been identified, that it's too expensive for open market buyers to PVP with, so the consumers here are PVE users. PVE users don't blow up stuff very often, so the sales depend on second accounts or new players for volume. T2 on the other hand would probably have a bigger market, but we ran into this problem last night. Because of the T1,T2P,and T3P costs you have to make and sell a min. number of units just to break even at the going market price. That is a T3 item at 1.5M on the market can cost 1.5M each to make if the run is small. The larger the run, the more the cost of the production gets spread out. But as indicated, the market isn't strong and repeating for T3, so making 20 items and only having 6 sell means you've lost money and tied up capital in 14 units. That calculation gets worse when you go to T4.
Edit: But you can't stop the chain at T2, or your T3 run won't be profitable either.
Large corps have alot more capital, so they can afford to wait 3-4 weeks for 20 units to sell, and continue to produce. Small indy corps, the ones most likely to put T4 on the market can do that with a 'few' items, but in general still need to keep stock turning over.
tl;dr - More demand on the market will result in more supply. Small indy corps can't carry the market waiting for the demand, the chicken has to come first. NeX, being a large corp, actually had the potential to be the egg and stock the market, but instead chose to stock their internal market; and now the market is not just competing with a low demand, but a second market. 
It's a perpetual cycle that essentially is leading to the breakdown of the public market. New corp comes along, nothing on the market to buy in reliable amounts. Corp starts up own market and industry to supply it's members. Corp purchases outside of internal market to push forward research and buy raw materials to manufacture with, depending on their needs and own supply. Once the corp reaches a point where they can supply everything they need through their own tech tree, there's no real point to going to the public market aside to sell surplus. ( which doesn't happen often in an active enough PvP guild )
Over a looooooooooooong enough time, the market will open up for higher tier stuff, but that's only after a corp reaches the pinnacle of their research and have thoroughly saturated their own supplies. The public will basically get the excess... but again, who's going to be buying this stuff? Most other big corps who make it that far to have a reasonable wealth to demand t4 steadily will have their own supply they fostered with the initial buildup of their industry. So it will basically be slim pickings from new corps or members who don't have the tech yet. There's really not much of a middle ground. The existence of internal markets almost insures that the public market won't see much attention which will put people off it's desirability and on to establishing their own corps internal market. Ad nasuem.
We're still stocking the market very heavily. We just keep stuff that we already entirely consume (t3 lwf? t4 lwf!) in house. So you'll see our t4 universals on the market, but you won't see our t1 l demobs because we use them up so fast.
That said, the high tax rates make it so that we've got a TON of industrial buying and selling going on in house. You can't afford to lose ten percent of a transaction to the ether on minerals as a miner -- even if you're mining epi!
In fact, just last weekend me and three other dudes sold ~50m nic worth of epi through a direct transaction and saved a fortune on tax while still getting market rates. Delish!
Lower tax, higher volume. And corp markets probably do belong in the dust bin of history until things improve, tbqfh.
Lower tax, higher volume. And corp markets probably do belong in the dust bin of history until things improve, tbqfh.
We could all make use of this function, not just NeX and a few of their friend corps.
When I get home tonight I will make a new corp where every alliance/corp/individual will be able to put an alt in, and we will make the 'Perpetuum Black Market' a reality, where ppl dont have to pay taxes or limit their buy and sell orders with skills.
Once I created the corp I will make a public announcement, because the more entities join in, the more populated the internal market will be, so it will benefit us all.
Isn't that going against the EULA tho? It's sort of abusing an existing a game mechanic. Would be nice if there was some feedback from the Devs beforehand.
... Some of us remember what happened when there was a very convenient way of "insuring" bots and making a profit. 
if this is what it takes for the DEVs to fix the current design then its worth the effort
if this is what it takes for the DEVs to fix the current design then its worth the effort
I agree..
A sad truth is that sometimes devs will only fix something when its absolutely necessary.
Its like, you have to prove to them you can break something before they will fix it. and hopefully in the process improve it.
Not sure this would be against the EULA though, I think you'd have a pretty tough job convincing EVERYONE to make an alt just for that.
I am still waiting on T2 modules to be available in ANY quantity. Currently I am missing some critical components in setups (mostly t2 sensor amps and tunings). there's a huge gap between T1 and T3/T4 (especialy T4 jumps in price).
Unless somebody makes a risky investment into the market and starts selling T2 in larger quantities, the status quo will continue.
and DEVs please 1/2 the market tax ....
Hugh... oddly enough I started runs of those modules last night. Check Tamas's black market tomorrow and you'll find them there priced to sell!
I asked the DEV's (Calvin and Gargaj) on IRC and they dont see a problem with this, so here we go
That surprises me, or they just havn't though it through.
New players aren't going to get the memo, so they won't have access to the black market. So we can assume that the customers on the black market are going to be from larger corps, looking for bulk items at discounts. Larger producers will be there, because it's easier and faster to turn around large orders, even for less profit.
It doesn't matter if they join NeX's market or Tama's, acutally they'll probably be in both.
That leaves novice players and novice producers on the open market; that is players with no NIC to spend and producers with poor skills selling at prices poor players can't afford.
Result: New players think the game sucks and leave.
Tama's has already stated he thinks its bad for the game, but by the time the 'proof' of players not subbing or online numbers dropping, you've already lost them.
At SOME time, player generated markets will probably emerge naturally anyway. But seriously, right now with this level population, its totally possible to get 60% or more participation (of the people with NIC and Production) and drop the public market to a level of being unuseable.
I'm sure the dev's are thinking CIR, NeX, ect ect won't participate but really what have they to lose, since the alts will be anyamous and its where all the 'stuff' will be.
Can we just agree it's a bad idea, fix it, and move on without having to prove it and have our wallets and storages wiped?
Powered by PunBB, supported by Informer Technologies, Inc.
Currently installed 3 official extensions. Copyright © 2003–2009 PunBB.
Generated in 0.082 seconds (87% PHP - 13% DB) with 23 queries
Copyright © Avatar Creations
