Topic: MK2 CTs need adjustments

What follows is based on my firm belief that no rare finds/drops in an mmo should be completely worthless.  They can be worth very little (bad luck on the loot table roll), but not worthless.  If you disagree with that, you will disagree with everything else that follows.

As things stand there are two fundamental problems with the MK2 CTs, one big one and another small one.

The first and biggest is that 25% CTs are completely worthless.  Once we got past the initial rarity of CTs in the first few weeks, every artifact hunter had a dozen+ in storage and many just destroy them now on getting them (that's often the advice in the trade channel to a noob who just got their first one).  Two things contribute to this situation. 1) they are too expensive to build. 2) there are more than enough 50% and 75% CTs out there (relative to the number of manufacturers actually building MK2s) that there is no need for almost anyone to actually build off them.

I'm not suggesting that the drop rate be reduced (nerfing loot drops is never a good thing) or that CTs be upgraded (25->50, 50->75, 75-90, or just 25s ->50's) as I've seen a few people suggest.  That's no sloution as it would flood the 50% market more (it's already flooded) and make 50's worthless.  Best I can think of is to either make them researchable for manufacturing info (at more than a normal kernel and less than an observer kernel) or allow them to be combinable (e.g., perhaps 3 25's to make 1 50).  This would put a floor under the 25's (the value of the research).  It doesn't have to be a lot, but at least its something, so that hairy run into a bunch of NPCs to get at the Sci artifact at least got you something for the trouble.

The second and smaller problem is that industrial MK2 CTs (even 75s) are worth very little.  The reason here is that the bonus on almost all MK2 industrials isn't worth the added cost to build it.  Yes, there are some people who say that they are worth it (look at the threads from right after the patch that introduced them). But the market never lies! These things just don't sell! In other words, people who are spending their own nic (as opposed to their corps) don't think they're worth the cost.  The best way to fix this is tweak the bonuses (e.g., more cargo space maybe for hauler, higher mining/harvesting bonus (maybe 2% per level) for miners & harvesters.

I'm sure others can  come up with other options. I just think both these things need a fix.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Solution. CT recycling.
CTs should be able to be recycled or combined with other CTs to prolong their life or at least do SOMETHING with all those CTs that are useless.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

I disagree with the premise that 25% CT's are worthless, they have no value for mass production, but they are entirely feasible for upgrading a single unit.

Your going to pay 30M NIC for a 75% Riveler MK II CT, because it has great value for mass production. However, if you have a riveler already and you simply want to upgrade it yourself, and since your a miner already, you're only have to buy the Alligor and the Hmech CPU, which you can do for less than the 35M NIC Market price of the MK II.

Not completely wortheless, but of very little value.

What your asking for is a way to get around paying 30M NIC from someone that has found a 75% CT. These are not so rare that you can't get them.

This CT combination thing already has a thread for CT's in general, not just MK II's, and I posted ways that it could work there. I just don't think that it's going to be anything that will gain traction, especially with the new base % changes.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Calio wrote:

The second and smaller problem is that industrial MK2 CTs (even 75s) are worth very little.  The reason here is that the bonus on almost all MK2 industrials isn't worth the added cost to build it.  Yes, there are some people who say that they are worth it (look at the threads from right after the patch that introduced them). But the market never lies! These things just don't sell!

First, 60 days of EP needed to drive a Riv MK II. That's not something casual miners are going to invest in. Second, most dedicated miners are already in Riv MK II's simply because they are worth it. lastly, the market price doesn't reflect the true cost of building a MK II, it reflects how rarely they are made because of demand; not because of the cost of manufactoring.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

As Arga said, MKII industrial heavy mechs are very powerful, and the low trade volume is more due to the fact that there are so few people who can use them.

6 (edited by Annihilator 2011-08-11 23:54:31)

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

i will have a demand for two riv mk2's and one symbiont mk2 in about ... 3 weeks.

their current market price is... hmm, i bit to high for my taste.

for three weeks i't trying to get hold of at least one 25% light bot CTs -> they are nothing worth , but i dont get a single one, even for 100k per CT...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

PM me when you need the Riveler MKII's and we might work something out.

8 (edited by Calio 2011-08-12 03:48:12)

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Arga wrote:

I disagree with the premise that 25% CT's are worthless, they have no value for mass production, but they are entirely feasible for upgrading a single unit.

What your asking for is a way to get around paying 30M NIC from someone that has found a 75% CT. These are not so rare that you can't get them.

I have plenty of 50's & 75's CTs, thank you very much, both combat and industrial, and the ones I don't find, I buy cheap enough.  Edit: and BTW I resent that second statement.

My purpose was not to avoid paying for a 75 (though anyone who pays 30 for anything but a heavy combat mech CT is a fool - It'll degrade to 50 before they get their 30 back - better just find/buy a 50). I just don't have the heart to destroy my 25's and I think it's just wrong that the worst and most common artifact find (few fragments and a low level decoder) is worth more than a relatively rare CT. 

Something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. Are you paying 30 mil for 75s? If so, I got some to sell you gladly! And if you're not willing to pay for something, your statement of its worth has no credibility.

And yes, there are 10 people out there who would buy a 25 to upgrade their bot.  In fact, I got lucky when all CTs were still scare and managed to sell one.  But there are hundreds of 25s sitting in people's storage now (I have 14 myself and I only do artifacts casually). The market is beyond flooded with 25s. They are essentially worthless.

My own personal prefence is to make them usable for research, not combinable, though usefull for repairing a degraded CT as someone suggested sounds OK too.

As for how great the MK2 industrials are, sure they are better than regular ones, and certainly worth it if you're getting it from your corp. I personally don't intend to do a run of any of them because I don't want to tie up a few K of briochit in bots that take me 2 months to sell off if I'm lucky (and those are the lights and assault industrials for which many people already have the EP/skills and which at least sell slowly.)

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Calio wrote:

Edit: and BTW I resent that second statement.

I'll rephrase it: You're asking to create a way for players to get around paying for rarer CT's.

The 25%'s aren't worthless, so there isn't a need to turn them into something that has a fairly good value.

Sorry if you took the rebuttal personally.

And of course 30M is for Hmech (I'll skip resenting your implication that you think I'm a fool - see what i did there?)

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Calio wrote:
Arga wrote:

I disagree with the premise that 25% CT's are worthless, they have no value for mass production, but they are entirely feasible for upgrading a single unit.

What your asking for is a way to get around paying 30M NIC from someone that has found a 75% CT. These are not so rare that you can't get them.

I have plenty of 50's & 75's CTs, thank you very much, both combat and industrial, and the ones I don't find, I buy cheap enough.  Edit: and BTW I resent that second statement.

My purpose was not to avoid paying for a 75 (though anyone who pays 30 for anything but a heavy combat mech CT is a fool - It'll degrade to 50 before they get their 30 back - better just find/buy a 50). I just don't have the heart to destroy my 25's and I think it's just wrong that the worst and most common artifact find (few fragments and a low level decoder) is worth more than a relatively rare CT. 

Something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. Are you paying 30 mil for 75s? If so, I got some to sell you gladly! And if you're not willing to pay for something, your statement of its worth has no credibility.

And yes, there are 10 people out there who would buy a 25 to upgrade their bot.  In fact, I got lucky when all CTs were still scare and managed to sell one.  But there are hundreds of 25s sitting in people's storage now (I have 14 myself and I only do artifacts casually). The market is beyond flooded with 25s. They are essentially worthless.

My own personal prefence is to make them usable for research, not combinable, though usefull for repairing a degraded CT as someone suggested sounds OK too.

As for how great the MK2 industrials are, sure they are better than regular ones, and certainly worth it if you're getting it from your corp. I personally don't intend to do a run of any of them because I don't want to tie up a few K of briochit in bots that take me 2 months to sell off if I'm lucky (and those are the lights and assault industrials for which many people already have the EP/skills and which at least sell slowly.)

what market do you speak about ? certainly not the ingame market window since I cannot find CTs there. forums don't count as a market for many people.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

There are several problems with the current mechanics. Some MK II bots are just not worth to be built (Industrial Mechs) besides for the lolz. I've seen Lithus, Riveller and Symbiont MK IIs but never a Gargoyle or Termis MK II. The demand for combat bots is good and steady but when doing artifact scans you find many many more CTs for industrial bots than for combat bots. Combat bots get destroyed (check Perp KB), either in PvP or even PvE, industrial bots practically never. And as Calio already said: there are hundreds - maybe even thousand - of 25% CTs out there. Combining them for increased % won't do the trick. Simply too many of them already exist and it would only decrease the value of 50 and 75% CTs (even 50% industrial bot CTs don't sell atm).
Recycling them for some decent material or consuming them for research would be great. Maybe 1x 25% CT gives research like one or two T5 kernels of the same robot size. Two ways to take them out of game without screwing up other game mechanics.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

recycling CTs sound stupid...  what do you get out of it? a bunch of bits and bytes?

or a 3 metachropin that was used to create a crystal miniature ? big_smile

Error wrote:

IIs but never a Gargoyle or Termis MK II

Seems you have never seen me mining...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Hugh Ruka wrote:

what market do you speak about ? certainly not the ingame market window since I cannot find CTs there. forums don't count as a market for many people.

The trade channel, which is where all CTs are currently offered/bought.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Annihilator wrote:

recycling CTs sound stupid...  what do you get out of it? a bunch of bits and bytes?

Bits and bytes are info. Info is a product of research and generally useful.

In any case, even if I grant that MK2 industrials are useful enough to build & buy (let's just leave at that we agree to disagree), as I said at the outset, that is the minor problem.  The big problem is the 25% MK2 CTs, whose only use right now is as storage wallpaper.

As the game is currently structured, the ONLY items besides MK2 CTs that cannot be reduced to something at least minimally useful (and therefore at least minimally valuable) are kernels, MK2 cpus, and decoders (and level 1-3 decoders suffer from the same problem as 25s - huge oversupply).  Kernels and cpus have found supply-demand equilibrium points and have managed to retain some value (slowly rising for kernels and slowly falling to steady for cpus), so they don't need floors under their values. The 25s are a disaster area, they need something that puts a floor under their value by allowing them to be removed from the game in exchange for something else which has at least some minimal value.  You want to debate what that mechanism should be, fine. I think it would be a useful discussion. I have my preferences, but I'm ultimately agnostic with respect to what the solution should be. I just think a solution is sorely needed.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Your still working off the assumption that 25% ct's are worthless. Anni just said he's willing to pay 100k each for them, and I pointed out that they can be used for single bot creation.

Its difficult to agree to disagree, and move on to talking about solutions, when we disagree on the existance of a problem to solve.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Arga wrote:

Your still working off the assumption that 25% ct's are worthless. Anni just said he's willing to pay 100k each for them, and I pointed out that they can be used for single bot creation.

Its difficult to agree to disagree, and move on to talking about solutions, when we disagree on the existance of a problem to solve.

He's looking for a single one and if he posted on the trade channel this weekend he'd probably have 5 offered to him. Like I said even if there are 9 others like him out there, there are more 25's in game than the max number of players logged in during prime time. The market isn't just flooded with them, it's tsunamied (if that's a real word).  There is absolutely no way to absorb them all with the current game mechanics.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

At some point in the future, if more players are interested in MK II bots, then they will get eaten up very quickly at 1 bot per CT. The only real arguement your making is for them to nerf the drop rate of CT's.

Also, the current 'bottleneck' in MK II construction isn't the CT. It's the cortex's, which is working as intended according to the nerf'd drop rate. Somehow making 25% CT's more useable, won't really make an impact in the speed of production of MK II bots, or the cost.

So, even if we agree that the CT's are 'worthless', there are already too many 'worthwhile' CT's out there. And like Anni again pointed out, the CT is a blue print, not an 'item', so there's nothing but information to recycle. Then the only solution is to reduce the number of drops, or eliminate it completely, anything else doesn't solve it, just shuffles the 'worthless' to another item.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

by the time there's 100 more players there'll be 200 more 25s and so on. It's not like they're going to stop dropping.

And as I said above, information has value.

"Shuffling the 'worthless' to another item" is what I'm advocating, as long as that other item is not also worthless.  It doesn't have to be worth a lot, but it should be worth something.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Arga wrote:

At some point in the future, if more players are interested in MK II bots, then they will get eaten up very quickly at 1 bot per CT. The only real arguement your making is for them to nerf the drop rate of CT's.

Also, the current 'bottleneck' in MK II construction isn't the CT. It's the cortex's, which is working as intended according to the nerf'd drop rate. Somehow making 25% CT's more useable, won't really make an impact in the speed of production of MK II bots, or the cost.

So, even if we agree that the CT's are 'worthless', there are already too many 'worthwhile' CT's out there. And like Anni again pointed out, the CT is a blue print, not an 'item', so there's nothing but information to recycle. Then the only solution is to reduce the number of drops, or eliminate it completely, anything else doesn't solve it, just shuffles the 'worthless' to another item.

I have to disagree completely.
1.More (new) players means vastly more 25% CTs too. The influx of CTs grows stronger than the demand for MK II bots. And the current player baser with better EPs in the future isn't sufficient.
2.CPU Cortex' being a bottleneck? No. Otherwise the prices wouldn't be where they currently are. At the bottom. Assault CPU 100k, Hmech CPU 450k(?) ...

Recycling CTs into some sort of information = research. Sounds perfect to me.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

if you want to be able to recycle CTs into research - then please only MK2 CTs

imagine the exploit level if you could do this with regular ones

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

21 (edited by Calio 2011-08-14 14:46:38)

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Annihilator wrote:

if you want to be able to recycle CTs into research - then please only MK2 CTs

imagine the exploit level if you could do this with regular ones

This discussion only concerns MK2s

edit: and BTW I think your post (in a general discussion thread) about making the MK2 industrials a little better at generating isotopes is a wondeful idea for making the MK2 industrials more worthwhile.

22 (edited by Hugh Ruka 2011-08-15 08:22:52)

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Calio wrote:
Hugh Ruka wrote:

what market do you speak about ? certainly not the ingame market window since I cannot find CTs there. forums don't count as a market for many people.

The trade channel, which is where all CTs are currently offered/bought.

that's quite stupid. calling it market does not mean the same to all people. CTs should have a category in the general market.

these "unifficial" trading channels do kill the ingame market. we need some kind of public contracting in addition to the market window to make the market work better.

Re: MK2 CTs need adjustments

Calio: and i was only talking about small industrials when i mentioned that bonus wink ABSOLUTELY  NOT on Mechs.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear