Topic: Faction Mission Ammo

Is this supposed to be a reason to control/fight over a certain island, so you have easy access to said bot types faction ammo to be more viable in PvP?

I don't really understand the logic of having to go into hostile corporation territory with a sequer to grind missions for said mega corporation to get ammo.

Wouldn't it make more sense to grind the rep, then just buy the ammo for a large price or have players with enough rep be able to purchase CT's to manufacture them so the player economy is not bypassed?

Not QQing here, I just really am having a hard time wrapping my mind around this mechanic and what it is supposed to accomplish yikes

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

2 (edited by Deliv Erance 2011-08-10 06:55:59)

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

I'd quite like to see them as CT's which are gained via a loyalty point store. It will give missions a long term point and provide a reward for continuing to run missions after the golden triangle nerf (at least once you've got a decent relation ratio). If it was provided at something in the region of a 55-60% CT you'll get a decent amount of ammo with out them becoming anything near as cheap as i'm expecting ammo to get in the near future.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

So no one understands this mechanic? Devs? Anyone? What is the purpose of this?

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Faction ammo is simply as you stated, a reason for combat players to run missions since they don't care about the rep and the NIC reward is low.

They don't want it to be easily produced because it's actually very effective in PVP, much more so than player built ammo. If it was producable, beta corps would mass produce it and use it exclusively, and never run another mission.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Arga wrote:

Faction ammo is simply as you stated, a reason for combat players to run missions since they don't care about the rep and the NIC reward is low.

They don't want it to be easily produced because it's actually very effective in PVP, much more so than player built ammo. If it was producable, beta corps would mass produce it and use it exclusively, and never run another mission.

Do industrial players keep having to grind rep and missions after they are done? I think its a bit unfair to have to keep grinding missions on potentially hostile beta in a sequer just to get some ammo.

We should at least be able to buy it, say 1K per ammo if we have the rep..

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

6 (edited by Arga 2011-08-15 20:35:00)

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

The grind is very long so it seems like forever, and yes indeed they do, as Advanced tile scans are only available through mining missions.

Edit: Although they don't have to do it on beta, but they are also not equip'd from an EP standpoint to defend themselves on beta.

Again, if you can purchase it, that would be the ONLY ammo PVP would use. And then it would be required to compete, so alpha based PVP players would still have to go through the grind to get the rep, and THEN have to pay for the ammo with alpha level resource grinding.

This falls into the same reason why combat missions are being removed from the indy rep grind. If anything, faction ammo should be removed if the grind for it is too time consuming, making it easier to acquire is the wrong direction. Alternatley, the ammo could be made only slightly better then regular ammo, but then no one would bother, so again it may as well not be there.

I say it's similar, because it coudl be like the indy, where you just get access to ammo that provides a flat 1% more damage for each level of rep you have. That is bascially what your asking for, and now makes grinding to rep 6 a must have for pvp.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Arga wrote:

The grind is very long so it seems like forever, and yes indeed they do, as Advanced tile scans are only available through mining missions.

Edit: Although they don't have to do it on beta, but they are also not equip'd from an EP standpoint to defend themselves on beta.

Essentially though to get PvP ammo on beta, you are running hauler missions which means your combat skills will not help you really. So its not like EP will do you any good there.

Of course you can do this as a group I guess with EP combat chars, but its alot more organization going on and moving through hostile territory for the reward.

I think at the very least the mission to get these ammo should not involve a sequer or hauling... should involve combat.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

I totally agree, hauling missions shouldn't include faction ammo, I'm not sure what they should give. As it stands, that faction ammo is either dumped into the corp hanger for the combats, used on their own combat alts, or sold on the market. It should be some kind of market item, and not just straight NIC like plasma.

Really, the whole syndicate Reputation, mission reward thing needs a rework. Probably from the ground up. As that's a huge job, I don't expect or actually want them to concentrate on it now, but it's going to have to be revisted at some point. Or there could be something more coming down the pipe that makes total sense.

Maybe a faction store, where you get tokens for each mission to spend there, and certain items require both rep and tokens to purchase. Not a tiered token system though, or you end up like Wow with 'level 1' tokens that can only purchase things you don't need.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Faction stores would actually be a nice bolster to the usefulness of missions. Granted that the stores offered items that you could only get in the stores. This would actually add a nice venue to get distracted with. It would also provide a bigger emphasis on choice if the factions all had their own style of items that they offered. This way people would be vying for a faction's rep for more than just using whatever terminal they want to manufacture/research out of. In example, maybe Pel/greens have nice launchers, mods that altered launchers for special buffs/debuffs or something else that plays off their strengths.

Take the long way around back to square one
Today we're just outlaws out on the run

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

And you found the flaw.

Consumables I can see working , but nothing like modules, which should remain player created.

11 (edited by Sundial 2011-08-15 23:31:01)

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Grim Faust wrote:

Faction stores would actually be a nice bolster to the usefulness of missions. Granted that the stores offered items that you could only get in the stores. This would actually add a nice venue to get distracted with. It would also provide a bigger emphasis on choice if the factions all had their own style of items that they offered. This way people would be vying for a faction's rep for more than just using whatever terminal they want to manufacture/research out of. In example, maybe Pel/greens have nice launchers, mods that altered launchers for special buffs/debuffs or something else that plays off their strengths.

At the very least being able to buy items that modify production of normal items with said buff/debuff. Or Maybe there could be a post manufacturing process where you could use consumables on the items to give them a specific buff/debuff, so you don't cut out manufacturing.

Its tricky though, how do you make reputation worthwhile to both combat and industry?

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

12 (edited by Grim Faust 2011-08-16 00:07:55)

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Arga wrote:

And you found the flaw.

Consumables I can see working , but nothing like modules, which should remain player created.

If done right, not everything needs to be player created. It just needs to be handled in a way that doesn't ruin the market or parts there of. Offer alternatives, not definitive solutions. New mods can add flavor, but they dont need to become the FoTM that cripple present market slices.

Take the long way around back to square one
Today we're just outlaws out on the run

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Arga wrote:

And you found the flaw.

Consumables I can see working , but nothing like modules, which should remain player created.


Easily solvable by having the Faction store sell limited run CT's, which mission runners can buy using their points, and sell to industrialists for extra cash on the market.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Frankly, I think the rep/assignment aspect of ammo should just be done away with, at least as the sole source of advanced ammo. As a nice side bonus, fine. But there's no reason it shouldn't be available to player industry. After all, I doubt volcano charges are more technically complex than a T4 remote repair. And certainly fancy ammo should be more expensive and harder to build, just not completely inaccessible to indies.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Well the thing is, you want missions to give unique rewards that other activities/professions do not give you. The reason being that it needs to provide an incentive for players to do them, rather than farming mobs.

Problem is, even with the ammo, doing missions doesn't really give good enough rewards (from a relatively new player's point of view, not sure about beta missions). A rewards store, ala Captain Barbie Online  is actually not a bad solution, as it allows mission runners to influence industry and the market through combat activities that do not involve PvP or farming.

Basically, I think limited run CTs for special mission items/ammo is the way to go. Sure, maybe give them the option of buying the faction module by itself, but also allow them to buy a CT of it with limited runs, that they can sell for cash. That way they can choose between NIC and modules.

Industry profits, mission runners profit too.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Arilou wrote:

Frankly, I think the rep/assignment aspect of ammo should just be done away with, at least as the sole source of advanced ammo. As a nice side bonus, fine. But there's no reason it shouldn't be available to player industry. After all, I doubt volcano charges are more technically complex than a T4 remote repair. And certainly fancy ammo should be more expensive and harder to build, just not completely inaccessible to indies.

If faction ammo was buildable, the demand for faction ammo would so outweigh the demand for the other types, they wouldn't be worth making. If you had to have a stupid high reputation, like 7 to get the CT, then beta corps would be using it exclusively and alpha pvp players wouldn't have access to it simply because getting that level of rep for an alpha producer is very rare.

What I'm saying, is if you think it's difficult and expensive to buy T4 medium items off the market now, imagine how frustrating it would be for faction ammo to have the same limited supply; while your opponent uses it like candy.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

I don't see that faction ammo is a big problem.
It is hard to come by, not impossible. If someone really wants to have such ammo - he should pay the price. Either doing missions or buying them for lots of NIC (or whatever).

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Rico Rage wrote:

Well the thing is, you want missions to give unique rewards that other activities/professions do not give you. The reason being that it needs to provide an incentive for players to do them, rather than farming mobs.

I tend to think that if the incentive is anything other than "it's fun" the game is broken in that respect. Bad rewards can certainly be a valid disincentive. But if the activity isn't fun in itself, it's not fixed by making it more lucrative.

Arga wrote:

Valid points

The whole "corp internal market is overpowered" thing does seem to turn a lot of simple solutions into a massive boost for large beta corps. I hate to have grinding of any kind be the sole source of something in a game like this, though. Either way, alpha players simply should find that the best stuff is inaccessible or significantly harder to get. Beta represents the core concept of PO, with its claim to be "open PvP", so anything that gives players a reason to move outside the newbie zones is a Good Thing(tm).

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

+1 for any thing that makes this ammo a more accesable tool in the pvp tool box.

possible solutions.
1.limited CT purchasing from Beta islands
.a.Make the mats for said CTs higher than normal ammo. IE Mk2 bots vs normal
2.Have all missions on Beta islands provide ammo or an optional nic only/ammo only/ mixture reward
3.Install a Faction store in the Beta terminals that is only open to the owners of that terminal... Sell Faction Items for Nic at high prices
4.Allow a indy mission to swap ammo.
.a. Bring to Beta terminal 2000 x,y and z ammo + a random raw mat and receive 1000 faction ammo.

#4 is my favorite as it is placing a 6-1 value on faction ammo but also keeping it player driven.

Participate, Congratulate cause everything else will be seen as HATE.
Max yellow max all skills lvl 10 min max for the win

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

I like the 4th from Khader Khan.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

21 (edited by Rico Rage 2011-08-18 15:45:44)

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

The problem I see with that is that most missioners are Alpha dwellers. If mission running is not profitable in alpha, what are newbies to do when they start the game? It's not as if they can jump into beta without being blown up by 20 heavy mechs  in their light bot and then have certain people acting all badass in general chat about it.

Missions are pretty terrible as they are already for a newbie. I stopped running them as a trial because I figured out that I was spending almost as much on ammo as the reward was giving me, so I went farming instead and made a lot more money.

There's something pretty wrong about that, making more money farming some T1 spot as a newbie than doing the missions. I get it that you want it easier to get this ammo, that's good, but to make it available in the way you describe does not really solve the problem, only makes the gear/equip disparity between beta/alpha corps much worse. You won't get any PvP if an alpha knows you can not only field more experienced players than them, but better equipment as well (which is already the case, this just further tips the scale in your direction). There's not a lot of fun to be had being one-shotted in beta, adding this reward to beta islands only makes that problem worse.

Let the ammo flow through alpha mission runners. This game needs more PvE players to grow the playerbase. You can't expect to funnel them all into beta this early in the game's life, there are simply too many wowbears running around in MMO's these days. A large number of EVE players just stick to high sec all their lives, I believe this should be an option in Perpetuum as well, regardless of how much I dislike it.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Rico Rage wrote:

It's not as if they can jump into beta without being blown up by 20 heavy mechs in their light bot and then have certain people acting all badass in general chat about it.

lol They absolutely can! Maybe not solo, but people should just find a corp and make the leap. As in EVE, Beta isn't actually that dangerous to live in once you're there with a friendly corp or two around you. Even as a visitor to hostile islands, it's not that bad once you get the hang of it. There just aren't that many people on them.

Rico Rage wrote:

This game needs more PvE players to grow the playerbase. You can't expect to funnel them all into beta this early in the game's life, there are simply too many wowbears running around in MMO's these days. A large number of EVE players just stick to high sec all their lives, I believe this should be an option in Perpetuum as well, regardless of how much I dislike it.

If you legitimize risk-averse play as its own category (as opposed to letting it exist as a less-optimal style) a dual community evolves (as in EVE). PvEers will always be asking for more dynamic, exciting, and unpredictable content, essentially demanding that the devs recreate via AI something that already exists in PvP. It's never quite as good, though, and takes resources better spent on gameplay, interface, and graphics improvements. Best to just push people over the hump and show them it's no worse to lose your bot to a human than an AI.

I'm still totally okay with PvE content, just not separate from the open PvP. Missions as the main source of top-tier ammo is acceptable to me under those conditions, but not on Alpha (fine for them to get basic ammo via missions). The best stuff should always be Beta-sourced only. And I say that as someone who's (currently) an Alpha2 dweller.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Arilou wrote:
Rico Rage wrote:

It's not as if they can jump into beta without being blown up by 20 heavy mechs in their light bot and then have certain people acting all badass in general chat about it.

lol They absolutely can! Maybe not solo, but people should just find a corp and make the leap. As in EVE, Beta isn't actually that dangerous to live in once you're there with a friendly corp or two around you. Even as a visitor to hostile islands, it's not that bad once you get the hang of it. There just aren't that many people on them.

Rico Rage wrote:

This game needs more PvE players to grow the playerbase. You can't expect to funnel them all into beta this early in the game's life, there are simply too many wowbears running around in MMO's these days. A large number of EVE players just stick to high sec all their lives, I believe this should be an option in Perpetuum as well, regardless of how much I dislike it.

If you legitimize risk-averse play as its own category (as opposed to letting it exist as a less-optimal style) a dual community evolves (as in EVE). PvEers will always be asking for more dynamic, exciting, and unpredictable content, essentially demanding that the devs recreate via AI something that already exists in PvP. It's never quite as good, though, and takes resources better spent on gameplay, interface, and graphics improvements. Best to just push people over the hump and show them it's no worse to lose your bot to a human than an AI.

I'm still totally okay with PvE content, just not separate from the open PvP. Missions as the main source of top-tier ammo is acceptable to me under those conditions, but not on Alpha (fine for them to get basic ammo via missions). The best stuff should always be Beta-sourced only. And I say that as someone who's (currently) an Alpha2 dweller.


Trust me, I agree with you as I'm a big fan of PvP and thats the sole reason I play MMOs, for the challenge of fighting other players.

However Perpetuum is already set up in such a way that you never have to leave the safety of Alpha. It think nullsec has already proven that regardless of how much profit there is behind an activity, there are just certain playerst hat would rather do non-risky things for lesser gain. In fact I'd say that alpha is safer than high sec, because at least in EVE there's the risk of suicide ganks.

This is a different topic entirely though, and I'd hate to lose this discussion within this thread, so maybe I'll start a new thread with ideas on how to merge the PvP and PvE populations within the game.

Bringing it back to ammo though, I strongly believe the limited run CT approach would benefit all involved. Mission ammo prices would be cheaper, and also more readily available. Think of it like this:

I'm a newbie mission runner, I run missions in alpha and accumulate enough LP with the ICS faction to buy a 10 run, 1000ct CT for magnetdart ammo. I'm a combat agent, so I don't have the skills to manufacture it. So I look to the market, and see that there are industrialists looking to buy this CT in order to make the ammo and sell at a profit. I sell the CT and pocket the nic for my new assault bot I'm saving up for.

Industrialist:

I buy the CT, get the mats to produce it from a buy order on the market, which has been filled out by a local miner or a corp member. I gather the mats and schedule the CT to run and manufacture the ammo, I then sell the ammo at a price to make a profit on the market, but I can't sell it too high because everyone else is buying up CTs and producing it too, so I have to compete. I also have the option of producing it at cost, if I want to further help my corp.

PvP Pilot:

I get to buy my PvP and farming ammo for cheap because the ammo can be mass produced by industrials rather than painfully farmed by turning in missions over and over. Ammo is cheaper and more plentiful.

It seems like Win all across the board for me. Its certainly better for the market, over the current system since it actually involves the entire community across the board.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Just a point here that's hasn't been made explicit.

I haven't run any beta missions, but I'm assuming they pay Med. Faction ammo. Alpha ONLY gives small ammo.

Re: Faction Mission Ammo

Plenty of our guys run missions solo on beta. I've run a few, but missioning in general is not really my bag.

Most of beta is very quiet and you'll only occasionally be at risk even in pvp hot spots. If you're careful and you know the tz and the roaming gangs that come through you can usually work things so that you're never at risk.

Heck, I've solo mined epi on both Hokk and Nova without ever losing a bot because I know the zones, the activity levels at various tzs and I'm careful. You're actually at less risk doing missions because many people don't know the mission spots, while every pvper worth his salt knows the location of the epi fields on his preferred islands.

So while I wouldn't recommend mining epi on islands we roam (we will probably get you, it's kinda inevitable at this point; one dude has given up mining with his alts we've killed him so many times) you could easily run missions without most people spotting you.

You can always just bribe us to leave you alone, we're very corruptible big_smile