1 (edited by Raptine 2011-08-04 20:07:14)

Topic: Refining Formula

I’ve been looking for some time to find a relatively accurate refining formula on the forum but I have not had much luck. The sites and formulas (Naruby and Warux's ATG) I found do not tally with the actual numbers I see in-game – at least not accurately enough for my tastes! In some instances the difference is quite substantial.

TLDR – lots of maths and assumptions that are probably wrong. The purpose of this post is to get it flamed, corrected or confirmed. Have fun doing either yarr. I have a horrible suspicion I missed something important - T4 flamesuit available cool

DISCLAIMER: I am not a mathematician - jargon might be incorrect.

I am aware that we do not get to see the actual decimal places in both the in-game Factory Material Efficiency (ME) value and the Relation percentage value.  I started with the numbers I could obtain from the game over 3 characters – one of which was created with the only purpose to check waste on refining with absolute 0% in both ME and Relations. Characters referred to as Indy, Control and Combat from now on.
All calculations based on obtaining 300 Titanium by refining Titan Ore at a Level 1 refinery (ICS Alpha). The 300 number is arbitrary but large enough to hopefully minimize rounding errors.

Facts (numbers from the game)

(Indy / Control / Combat) = Legend

Factory ME % (ingame) – 89 / 75 / 76

Extension Level – 6 / 0 / 0

Relation % (in-game) – 6 / 0 / 8

Titanium required – 300 units

Titan Ore required  - 9000 units
(w/o waste = 30 ore per trit unit)

Current Ore Requirements (in-game) – 10,002 / 12,000 / 11,751 units of Titan Ore

Waste (in-game) - 1,002 / 3,000 / 2,751 units of Titan Ore

Preliminary Calculations

Waste % factor is [(Waste/Ore w/o waste)*100]

I get values of 11.13% / 33.33% / 30.57%. This calculation is borne out with the following formula (expanding to 6 decimal places for accuracy 0.111333 / 0.333333 / 0.30567):-

[Ore w/o waste*(1+decimal of Waste % Factor)] or for the Indy char example 9000*(1+0.111333) = 1,002 units wasted and confirmed in-game.


I also worked out the unshown decimal places in the Factory ME % by [(Ore req. w/o waste*current ore req.)*100]. Results are 89.98% / 75.00% / 76.59%

Assumptions

A. The control char has 33.33% waste which translates to a Level 1 refinery co-efficient (without relations and extensions) of 0.333333 which is significantly different to other numbers where I have seen 0.317 and 0.03 being used. I assume that this co-efficient will remain constant throughout.

B. Following above, the combat char with no extensions records a 76.59% Factory ME which translates to a 1.59% increase in ME with a recorded 8% relations. This might be the root of the formula on the forums where people calculate the relation coefficient decrease in waste as [relation %*0.002].

C. However, I think the relation coefficient decrease in waste should be calculated on the decrease in waste %. So Control char records a 33.33% while combat records a 30.57%. The difference attributed to 8% relation (no extensions on these 2 chars) is 2.76% or expressed in 6 decimal places as a coefficient we get 2.76/8  = 0.00345 which I rounded up to a nice number of 0.0035.

Basically, I think a 10% increase in relations will decrease your Waste % value by an absolute value of 3.5%. (assuming relations are linear).

Extension Level Coefficient (reduction in waste)

The formulas I have seen suggest the following formula [Extension Level*0.03]. However, this was not giving me the right numbers either. Reverse calculating back using Naruby's formula:-

Waste % factor (in decimal) = [Level 1 Waste coefficient] – ([Extension Level Reduction Coefficient] + [Relation Reduction Coefficient])

For the Indy char whereby I know for fact the Waste % factor (decimal) is 0.111333, we get:-

0.111333 = 0.333333-([Extension Level 6 Reduction Coefficient] + (6*0.0035)]
[Extension Level 6 Reduction Coefficient] = 0.201
Therefore, one Extension level reduces the Waste % Factor by 0.201/6 = 0.0335.

Assuming a certain variance due to the unshown decimal places, other assumptions above and many reverse calculations, I settled on 0.033333 as the one Extension Level coefficient.

The Big Question Mark

A couple of hours and too many assumptions later I came up with this formula which fits the 3 chars I have:-

Waste % factor (in decimal) = 0.333333 – ([Extension Level*0.033333] + [Relation*0.0035])

Leading to:

Actual Titan Ore required to refine x1 unit of titanium = [30*(1+ Waste % Factor in decimal)]

The formula works for me for any other commodity atm. I do need more data from others since 3 chars are hardly a significant statistical sample.

Annoying Relation Decimal Issue

Obviously the numbers above have a slight variance which is due to the unshown decimal places in the relation bonus. Keeping all the assumptions above, I actually worked out the decimal places for my relation bonus which theoretically should be 6.27% for the indy char and 7.91% for the combat char. Interesting to note that if I am anywhere close to being right, the relation bonus is rounded up to 8% in game.

Weird Stuff

For a while, I thought the extension level +3% to ME was compounded over the initial 75% value. I tried it out but the numbers came out all wrong when I took the Level 1 refinery coefficient (control) as 0.333333. In fact the relation bonus was not resulting linear over the 3 chars. Also, the combat char disproved that notion with his 76+% ME without 1 level of extensions. Following that line of thought, 8% relations resulted in +1.59% ME while 6% relations was giving me less than 0.5% increase.

The 0.002 value for the relation bonus was even weirder when I was using Naruby's formula and comparing to my in game numbers – in some instances the 8% bonus was resulting to be less beneficial than the 6% indy relation bonus. This was using the fixed 0.333333 Level 1 refinery ME coefficient value. When I reversed the situation, I was getting different values for the refinery coefficient. I though this was improbable and hence started on a new track.

Edit: hopefully amended all tritanium references to titanium - thanks Annihilator
Edit2: Amended last sentence in Assumptions section - should refer to a decrease in waste not increase in ME.

2 (edited by Xyberviri 2011-08-04 17:00:31)

Re: Refining Formula

Ill work on this when i get home tonight i have two industrial toons with refining 5 and diffrent relations at the bellicha outpost on new virginia. so i can get you some numbers when i get home.

Re: Refining Formula

dont want to nitpic, but there is not tritanium in this game wink

got to read the whole post later and answer to it

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

4 (edited by Fef 2011-08-04 19:39:02)

Re: Refining Formula

oops - Titanium - EvE spreadsheets have taken their toll smile

Raptine

Re: Refining Formula

Forgot to add in the OP that the main formula's are all from Naruby's post. I suck at linking.

One other thing I still have not yet figured out completely is the extension level coefficient. If (big if) my math is sound then there should be an explanation why it differs from Naruby's formula.

Re: Refining Formula

Xyberviri wrote:

Ill work on this when i get home tonight i have two industrial toons with refining 5 and diffrent relations at the bellicha outpost on new virginia. so i can get you some numbers when i get home.

Afaik, Bellicha Outpost is a Level 2 refinery. My calculations are all based on a Level 1.
Thanks for the help though - appreciated!

Re: Refining Formula

You are trying to do this the hard way, the formular is quite simple, but instead of telling you what it is I will tell you how to work it out.

1) Make a trial account, with a combat character on it, wait 10 days to get more EP
2) Put 100K titan ore in a field can for the trial to take.
3) Go to terminal and find how much titan the ore gives, Do nor actually refine it, just see what you would get. Train a level of refining, and see how much titan you now get. Repeat until all your EP has gone.

You now have the data you need to work out the formular. Finding the effect of relations is more difficult, you should not attempt that until you know the effect of refining skill.

8 (edited by TokTok 2011-08-09 03:39:08)

Re: Refining Formula

These are the numbers for turning HDT to Isopropentol

Refinery I
used    result    delta    componets    Relation    Material
999983    17554    122283    50    6%    87%
999973    17506    124673    50    5%    87%
999942    16816    159142    50    0%    87%

Refinery II
used    result    delta    componets    Relation    Material
99976      1989      526       50    6%    99%
99997      1984      797       50    5%    99%
999956    19894    5256      50    6%    99%
999966    19840    7966     50    5%    99%
999987    19059    47037     50    0%    99%

All Characters have Refining 5

Re: Refining Formula

Use the code tag.

Refinery I
used		result		delta		Components	Relation	Material
999983		17554		122283		50		6%		87%
999973		17506		124673		50		5%		87%
999942		16816		159142		50		0%		87%

Refinery II
used		result		delta		Components	Relation	Material
99976 	 	1989 		526   		50		6%		99%
99997 		1984 		797   		50		5%		99%
999956		19894		5256  		50		6%		99%
999966		19840		7966 		50		5%		99%
999987		19059		47037 		50		0%		99%

All Characters have Refining 5

See?