Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

We're are they changes btw? We are coming up on the second week of Aug, and this patch is starting to overflow into the proposed changes for the week of the 15th.

I know those aren't hard dates, but we were looking forward to some changes here this summer. I think this has been a great discussion, but we really won't know until the patch hits the pavement how it will really effect the game.

Without a beta sever to test, I can understand the reluctance to do something this sweeping to PVP, but lets do 'something' and see if it works. As long as the system is in place and not buggy, the details on rewards/SAP times can be adjusted (and probably will need to be anyway).

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Juan Valdez wrote:

CIR and co wouldn't lose out from this, as they have a few good corps in the alliance stable. The most capable groups would no doubt go out to Dom and take the empty or underused outposts there.

Syndic seems most worried about the likelihood of a reduction in population density on Nova, as that impacts the defensibility of ops and increases the length of shifts for gate scouts (fewer people, same number of gates, fewer scouts). This is a logical worry, as is his fear that some corps will feel the urge to bloat up in order to minimize the risk that an SAP will remain undone.

I'd personally prefer that population density on beta islands be made more even, and that's the likely result. A single well protected island chock full of people isn't as interesting for solo or small gang pvpers as several more moderately defended ones. Since those solo guys are fun to fight and write interesting stories encouraging them is a good thing, even if it does mean more vulnerable farmers getting popped!

You shouldn't spend this much time thinking about what worries me. Nothing about this change worries me, the ability for projected military force to directly apply to Outpost stability is obviously something that is very suitable for us on SovNov.

I am arguing that it is unfair & unjust that in a 6-corp alliance, 2 corps are the only ones getting the benefits of something the whole alliance is working on. It is ludicrous to assume that treating corps like this will cause anything BUT the formation of mega-corporations, hell I'll be the first to disband CIR & merge into a SovNov mega-corp if the alliance CEO's vote for that.

Its either 5 corporations with 100 members, or 1 corp with 500 members, either way inter-corporation relations will just grow stronger more quickly then they usually do over course of time. The game-mechanic that stops people from playing with friends was invented a long long time ago, and its called singleplayer mode. lol

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Game should be more dynamic: i think "SAP"s should be like POSes. When you capture OP, you should build your own structures arouns it, and if enemy want to capture OP it should destroy\hack\disable this structure(s). In my opinion outposts should be intermediate level between alpha and your own city (what top corps will build on terraformed ground), so i think outpost should be a hub, around what you should build upgrades/sap's. And when you will get from OP all you want, you will move your corp to the your own city. In this system i think you will get large and small scale pvp, instead of sneak-hack of current saps in intrusion 2.0 system.

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

It's not unfair or unjust to the renters. That's life for a renter. The only reason you are saying that it's unfair or unjust is that now they have less of an impact by being in your alliance if they can't capture saps for you. They still have all of the same benefits they have now, and they can't capture saps for you now (besides being able to help shoot destruction). The only change that's coming is now if they're not complete ***, they can see they don't need you as much as you need them.

Maybe now instead of them paying you to live on nova, you'll have to pay them to live there. Better get that riv mk2 out mining the epriton!

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Smokeyii wrote:

It's not unfair or unjust to the renters. That's life for a renter. The only reason you are saying that it's unfair or unjust is that now they have less of an impact by being in your alliance if they can't capture saps for you. They still have all of the same benefits they have now, and they can't capture saps for you now (besides being able to help shoot destruction). The only change that's coming is now if they're not complete ***, they can see they don't need you as much as you need them.

Maybe now instead of them paying you to live on nova, you'll have to pay them to live there. Better get that riv mk2 out mining the epriton!

You disappoint me... son.

No delivery.

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

81 (edited by Syndic 2011-08-06 19:10:14)

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Smokeyii wrote:

It's not unfair or unjust to the renters. That's life for a renter. The only reason you are saying that it's unfair or unjust is that now they have less of an impact by being in your alliance if they can't capture saps for you. They still have all of the same benefits they have now, and they can't capture saps for you now (besides being able to help shoot destruction). The only change that's coming is now if they're not complete ***, they can see they don't need you as much as you need them.

Maybe now instead of them paying you to live on nova, you'll have to pay them to live there. Better get that riv mk2 out mining the epriton!

There are no renter or pet corporations in SovNov, according to our publically posted Statement of Intent.

Allied corps are equal, therefore they should have equal treatment by the game-mechanics. Attempting to force corporations to disband alliances will only result in the creation of the very thing that they attempt to avoid and discourage. smile

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Not entirely true syndic as you know that a corporation that size wouldn't survive very long as is the nature of people and personal agendas.

Stop trying to scare monger, as per usual your political machinations are blunt and unskilled

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

NeX is a testament to the ability of such big corporations to survive and stay intact. They are but the first, and there is no difference between organizing an action plan for a 100-200 man corporation or a 500 man corporation.

Just a matter of delegation, as our friends in NeX know well. smile

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Syndic wrote:

NeX is a testament to the ability of such big corporations to survive and stay intact. They are but the first, and there is no difference between organizing an action plan for a 100-200 man corporation or a 500 man corporation.

Just a matter of delegation, as our friends in NeX know well. smile


Is that because of our capitalist approach to the game over the commanistic approach? Is it that we came here in masse from anther sandbox game that has allowed us to adapt more quickly than new players that have never been in a sandbox game before? Is it because of our internal structure of council type management over the dictator approach?
   
While I agree that mega corps have before and can survive, there are too many variables at this time to say that X method is the best method to use.

[16:03:43] <Mara Gossep> syndic.....and get your *** spy out of our corp

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Politics and territorial control are key ingredients that make any sandbox game such as Perpetuum appealing to a particular demographic of player. To grow and expand its playerbase(*) the Perpetuum developers need to experiment- and that in my opinion is what this Intrusion 2.0 boils down to.

An experiment.

* The casual/non political/solo type player can have a place in Perpetuum and the developers seem dedicated to providing content additions that may or may not appeal to these types of player. Empire builders however are a seperate breed from these kinds of player and they add depth and dimension to the game that the casual/non political/solo player does not. More people online is great- its more of the right people online that the developers should be chasing/luring/brainwashing in order for this game to make the leap from its current state to one that has- for example- 1000 concurrent accounts active and online rather than 200-500 online at any given time.

So to reiterate- Intrusion 2.0 is a good thing(maybe). Corps like CIR, NeX, M2S, CHAOS, HUN, F-Navy et all are good for Perpetuum because the warfare and politics and propaganda do have an indisputable appeal to a certain type of player that may stick with this game for years, not months or weeks and then abandon Perpetuum to go to the next fotm. I hope this experiment works and has the desired effect of increasing diverse opportunities for conflict and politics. I look forward to seeing how the political landscape of Perpetuum will have changed in six months...

Large corps are as likely to fail as small corps btw.

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

I think it boils down to a certain "ideal" of sandbox games...

No players should be "forced" down a certain path by artificial game mechanics. There are players out there who want to be part of a small corporation of friends that isn't allied with anyone, there are also players out there who want to build something bigger; an alliance, a nation, kingdom, empire, whatever.

Both playstyles should be equally encouraged by the Developers, because in the sandbox both of those playstyles provide the CONTENT.

Just look at what Goonswarm did to EVE, 5 thousand(!) nerd-people focused on annihilation, trolling, griefing, scamming, etc. Worst thing that could happen right?  They were the content that CCP could never have anticipated or implemented, and it was the best thing that happened to that game.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Syndic wrote:
Juan Valdez wrote:

CIR and co wouldn't lose out from this, as they have a few good corps in the alliance stable. The most capable groups would no doubt go out to Dom and take the empty or underused outposts there.

Syndic seems most worried about the likelihood of a reduction in population density on Nova, as that impacts the defensibility of ops and increases the length of shifts for gate scouts (fewer people, same number of gates, fewer scouts). This is a logical worry, as is his fear that some corps will feel the urge to bloat up in order to minimize the risk that an SAP will remain undone.

I'd personally prefer that population density on beta islands be made more even, and that's the likely result. A single well protected island chock full of people isn't as interesting for solo or small gang pvpers as several more moderately defended ones. Since those solo guys are fun to fight and write interesting stories encouraging them is a good thing, even if it does mean more vulnerable farmers getting popped!

You shouldn't spend this much time thinking about what worries me. Nothing about this change worries me, the ability for projected military force to directly apply to Outpost stability is obviously something that is very suitable for us on SovNov.

I am arguing that it is unfair & unjust that in a 6-corp alliance, 2 corps are the only ones getting the benefits of something the whole alliance is working on. It is ludicrous to assume that treating corps like this will cause anything BUT the formation of mega-corporations, hell I'll be the first to disband CIR & merge into a SovNov mega-corp if the alliance CEO's vote for that.

Its either 5 corporations with 100 members, or 1 corp with 500 members, either way inter-corporation relations will just grow stronger more quickly then they usually do over course of time. The game-mechanic that stops people from playing with friends was invented a long long time ago, and its called singleplayer mode. lol

I'd argue that having a 500 man corporation/alliance in Perpetuum IS kinda like playing a single player coop game.  wink

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Syn-

An artificial game mechanic preventing small corps would be needing to have 30 people minimum to start one. A play mechanic in the game that requires a larger corporation to accomplish doesn't stop small friendly corps from forming. But as for outposts, a small group shouldn't be able to hold an 'empire' sized game mechanic. We're always at the edge of talking about how the game is now and where it is going, so a beta outpost now looks like the top prize, but after content releases who knows where it may go to.

Working with just what we have, I suggested and I think you're saying something similar, is one size doens't fit all. Making the current outposts hold-able by only the 3-4 largest corps not only locks many players out of that content but also leaves 60% of the content unsused. To accomodate the now, outposts that can handle (2) sized of Corps, large (200+) and Med (over 100) would allow much more of the content to be used, and then adjust the mechanics of holding it as the game progresses.

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Arga wrote:

Syn-

An artificial game mechanic preventing small corps would be needing to have 30 people minimum to start one. A play mechanic in the game that requires a larger corporation to accomplish doesn't stop small friendly corps from forming. But as for outposts, a small group shouldn't be able to hold an 'empire' sized game mechanic. We're always at the edge of talking about how the game is now and where it is going, so a beta outpost now looks like the top prize, but after content releases who knows where it may go to.

Working with just what we have, I suggested and I think you're saying something similar, is one size doens't fit all. Making the current outposts hold-able by only the 3-4 largest corps not only locks many players out of that content but also leaves 60% of the content unsused. To accomodate the now, outposts that can handle (2) sized of Corps, large (200+) and Med (over 100) would allow much more of the content to be used, and then adjust the mechanics of holding it as the game progresses.

I'm sorry but why shouldn't a small corp be able to hold an "empire" sized objective? There is no reason why this should be restricted by any artificial in-game mechanic. It's all about choice, consequence etc.

So, a small corp can attempt to take an outpost, get overrun by a bigger corp, which gets overrun by a more skilled/bigger corp, etc... It's all content and there is nothing wrong with the choice being available.

I am very much pro-multichoice, I don't like players being forced into certain "thought patterns" by artificial game mechanics.

In the end it all creates content. wink

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Slightly confused. The feeding cycle of smaller to larger corps taking outposts isn't prevented by the dev proposed mechanic. In fact taking an outpost is much easier for a small corp. They just won't be able to keep it or get any particular benefit from it. Heck even No-PVP PIE corp could get lucky and hang arounda 0% outpost for 10 mins and win a passive SAP, then buy up tp 100% and have some benefits for about a week.

If your saying outposts should all be 24 hour SAP's, yeah that's probably OK too. It could even be better for the game to have some outposts that are continually changing hands. Although I don't see this working well, because even if you buy up the % it's going to be difficult logistically to use an outpost for 'a few days'; and you'll probably lose more lithus's then you gain in production output or NIC.

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

IMHO not every outpost whould be captured in the same way and with the same "prerequisite"

eg - outposts that you can capture and hold and profit from if your EITHER a small corp, a big one, a more active one in either PvP or PvE.

more precise example: There could be an outpost that has relative good production facilities (attractive) but with limited prododuction capacity (not attractive for big corp). Easy to hold for a small corp, perhaps some increased roaming NPC activity for the Lore - and SAPs working like in my other post described.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Any corporation that is going to base itself on beta would have to have a minimal amount of firepower, to fight off SO's if nothing else. I think the worry here is that a small corp that captures an outpost, will again choose not to base there, since they would have difficulty moving supplies, mining, and just otherwise controlling the area around the outpost.

When I think of small or medium, I'm more considering the time zone coverage. A 'small' corp would still be an average of 20 active players online (about 60 player base), but they may only cover a 4-6 hour window; where a medium corp could cover 6-12 hours (200 players), and a large corp could cover 24/7 (500+).

It would totally defeat the purpose of the outpost change if it ends up in the same situation again where a corporation can't keep the area safe so they end up mining and ratting on Alpha and simply run back to beta each time the SAP goes active.

An alliance supported scheme, that is allowing multiple corps to band together and secure outposts, is just going to support the current model of play under the new mechanics. The ability for same Island corporations to be Allied isn't stopped by the game and is actually beneficial for both. Requiring each corp to be able to hold their own outpost though ensures that they can be equals in the alliance. It also doesn't stop outpost oweners from making alliances with small corps and allowing them access to both the island and the resources. This is actually better overall, since the outpost owner can't just use the small corps as a meat sheild, so the small corp actually needs to be doing something Useful for the alliance; which can simply be using the outpost which provides the owner with NIC.

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

No alliance mechanics, discourage blobbing. Thanks.

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

I think it's inevitable that as the world expands there will be a need and desire to have alliances, but I think as was pointed out on the podcast, that's its not really needed now and that corp features would be a priority.

I think it's probably OK to implement the new outpost setup without alliances, but there's a real possiblity that no CURRENT corporation will be capable of holding it at 100% as stated in the blog, due to the lack of 24/7 coverage.

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Options should be equally present for all playstyles. Having an alliance feature doesn't mean everyone is obliged to use it, without it we'll just end up with 500-man corps instead of 5 100-man corps. smile

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

I am not that really interested in holding an outpost with the new intrusion or  the present one. Risk/work involved versus rewards needs to change. Others will find interesting/chalenging to hold and lock access.

I am also in favour of alliances been formed, only, as equals with each corp holding its own OP as Arga mentions. 200+ man corp 'should' be more than enough to hold it close to 50-70%mark and mechanics should reflect that preference.
500 man corps to just to hold on at 50%, is way over the top if those are the game mechanics changes intentions.

We can't be sure what would happen until implemented, then tweak as necessary depending on feedback.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

Thing is people will want to try and keep the 100% mark so they will get the most benefit which means the alliances around will merge into 500 man corps instead so they can. It don't matter if you allow alliances or not, people will either merge as 500 man corps if alliances don't get to be able to have the benefits also. Either way things will change, I'd rather see a bunch of individual corps with their own identity vs 1 massing of corps into one.

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

If corp leaders would rather lose their identity, just to keep an outpost 100% so be it,if they feel more strongly about keeping the Corp, then they will not compromise in losing it and keep their own op at 50-70%. No one is forcing anyone to blob in a Corp.

If corps are going to be more busy defending, then less frequent attacks or far less numbers will be expected IMO.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

In all honesty it wont matter if you allow alliances or not. All in all the Power house blobbed-corps/alliances will be able to lock down 1 island have at least their staging point at 100% or near 100% all the time and be able to control the rest of the island so others can't dock. Along with being able to make it living hell for corps on connecting islands to be able to control docking. You will get the corps and people that will do everything possible to be able to and the ones that don't want to band together.

100 (edited by Sundial 2011-08-16 03:49:26)

Re: New devblog: Intrusion 2.0

suDndEth wrote:

In all honesty it wont matter if you allow alliances or not. All in all the Power house blobbed-corps/alliances will be able to lock down 1 island have at least their staging point at 100% or near 100% all the time and be able to control the rest of the island so others can't dock. Along with being able to make it living hell for corps on connecting islands to be able to control docking. You will get the corps and people that will do everything possible to be able to and the ones that don't want to band together.

A while back, I proposed an idea on IRC. A couple more "mini" size beta islands for smaller corps to take an hold, so they would not have to join an alliance to live on beta.

These islands would be smaller, have less recources etc making them less desirable to large corporations / alliances.

Problem is at the moment, adding more space to beta spreads people out more. So really we would need more players before something like this could be added.

The whole 1 size fits all outpost thing is a bit silly.

EDIT: even an island with 3 mini islands with choke points would be nice.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.