TL;DR  and i just couldn't make any sense of that at all sorry.

for understandig is enough http://blog.perpetuum-online.com/

Stopped reading here. Really? What server economy do you speak of? Because in the game I'm playing there is basically none.

So yeah. Defend your 'time spent' while new industrialists have 2 timewalls (ep/standing) before they can 'compete' with you even on stuff not worth producing (cause loot is cheaper anyway).

Umm, then why do you care about the impact new producers will have on 'the economy', when you operate basically outside of it?

- This is really BAD IDEA!!!!
Esptitum removal will remove it and from processing. Hunters will cease to benefit on an alpha islands. They will be useful only to kernels and base components (in PvE).

My personal position.
1) I agree that removing relations with combat corporations from the eficiency % may look as a good idea. The only thing that needs to be clarified is the question - does this game solo-oriented or it is more corporation-oriented. Because if it's more of a solo-game now, then it's a brilliant idea. New manufacturer will need only month or so to get a shielded termis and run through all missions like a rocket(I already planned the mission route with the featured Zombiepilot). In this case btw forget about making beta islands and beta outposts at least a bit attractive to the new players. But if it's more of a corporation-oriented game, then I don't understand this "tweak". Making combat missions with industry-char is kinda long and hard way. You need corpmates to make it + you need some specific extensions to be able to do anything there. It's hard, but it's nice to feel yourself a part of a corporation when you gather your corpmates to help someone with relations raising. Still, if the game has gone to solo-style, I won't say anything except #2(see below)
2) I want to thank the person, who "invented a wheel" in relations system and the one who is implementing it now. Especially I am grateful for those useless extensions on industry characters, and for the time which I lost trying to do those combat assignments.
3) About removing espitium from t1. I suggest to remove the high-grade recycling skill from the game or reset this skill after that patch. I think I am not the only one who doesn't recycle t2-t3-t4. And without espitium in t1, I think that this skill will be pretty useless.
P.S. BTW relation changes make it attractive for anyone to become single-guy-corp middleman. Alpha islands ftw...

I don't understand this thread... I doubt beginners will be competing with new players for a long time on the market due to the kernel nerf. Actually, the first players had an easier time than these new players will have.

-1

First of all, I strongly disagree that the developers should do whatever they want and not listen to player feedback, on the contrary I believe that is one of the strongest appeals of this game. It's also funny that you're directing your post to the DEVs, and asking to not listen to others, but they should listen to you?

Secondly, if your complaint is about the relation changes, you do not seem to realize that this is a change that benefits new players heavily. However, note that the reasoning that ‘Oh I have high relations, so therefore this is a great system and must stay’ is not a valid point, and that sort of conservatism it what can if anything creates the newbie-vs-veteran difference you seem to despise in the first place. Also, though I can a bit see Bankirs point of Corp VS Solo, here I would like to point out the already insanely long kernel grind (from a solo perspective), would it hurt having one grind that's doable for an individual at least? Large corporations will also have access to level 3 factories and refineries, already gaining a large advantage over solo alpha producers (which I have stated in other threads I am fine with, as this is a gain for increased risk).

Thirdly, have you missed that the upcoming changes (in terms on introducing complexity on modules and bots) will make it far easier for new producers to compete against the veterans? Correct me if I'm wrong, but how it's phrased it seems as if this will be gradual increase in complexity, and not at all only affect standard items. It will allow newcomers to first compete in the low-end goods, and as they gain EP, capital and experience they can start expanding into higher-tiered goods and bots. Without having seen the fine details yet I applaud the DEVs for this system.

Finally, about removing espitium on standard items. In large, I am not too bothered. Note that some standard items are difficult to obtain from NPCs, and they have quite high prices, the change will facilitate production of this, which will drive down prices and make them more accesible. In my opinion a good thing, I might agree that high-grade refining EP should be reimbursed.

TL;DR: A lot of whine and no substance. The new changes are making it significantly easier for new producers, and the DEVs are making powerful changes which ensures they can compete well.

Thanks for the correction

Several valid points. However, I do not fully agree on the decoder part, as even the veterans wont use high level decoders on ammo, so not real disadvantage there (as lvl 5's and lower are supercheap). Further, ME advantage will be diminished with introduction of complexity (I hope) on the lower end scale where new producers would produce. Then, hopefully we'll slow get rid of that relations stuff!

The cycle one is a good point though, perhaps increase the base of modules per cycle to 3?

that should be the main benefit. I was looking for kinetic hardeners and the price os 3x of seismic ones just because seismic and thermals drop a lot from NPCs. I asked a producer in my corp to build me kinetic hardeners since they are realy expensive. the reply was that the market price is below his production cost !!! that's seriously wrong. T1 should be easy to build and available to as broad a producer range as possible.

with the announced changes on CT creation - even the trials can build their basic ammo cheap.

it really makes a difference if you start with twice the material cost for a single stack, or with 1,1 times from lvl1 decoder.

sidenote: Hugh Ruka - kinetic hardeners drop from arbiter waspish upwards. pelistal robots lack 1 lower slot, so you don't find it very often. Farm the right bot and you get them in same quantity