Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

I like this basic idea. Sitting in a bot watching red lasers do stuff is dull, and it steals people away from doing other stuff.

I'd make the following requirements:

Beta Only (risk!)
Has an easily seen box (moar risk!)
Slower than default mining (reward for people doing it themselves)
Anyone looking at the box can see how full it is (WAY MOAR RISK)
Consumes mining charges (that + boxprice makes it more expensive than standard mining, giving the peeps who want to watch redlasers a price advantage)
Decays after ~three days (won't have loads of them sitting around idle)
Can set a mining intensity (basically, how often you'll need to empty it)
Requires decent level of mining skills to use (keeps people from just dumping them out on pvp chars)


Advantages:

Less mindless (makes people like me more likely to generate minerals)
Less time intensive (pop and drop, pay a higher PU price for mins but less time PU)
More goodfite targets, fewer "gank teh miner" targets (field of boxminers would need a lot of haulers, meaning a gang and a pvp opportunity)

27 (edited by Arga 2011-07-07 23:34:57)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

AeonThePiglet wrote:

I like this basic idea. Sitting in a bot watching red lasers do stuff is dull, and it steals people away from doing other stuff.

That's exactly my counter point. Not everyone wants to mine, that's OK because not everyone likes to PVP/combat, so each player can do what they please.

Letting one 'group' of players do (2) things "at the same time" while logged in is not balanced play. That is the PVP player gets to pew-pew AND mine in the same game space, while the miner only gets to mine.

It's unbalanced because the dedicated miner simply can't go do PVE combat, because all thier EP is in mining, while the combat pilot can simply drop a few aut-miners and do double-duty.

If you make the auto-miners EP intensive, so only miners can use them, then a corp will need fewer dedicated miners and the profession will be trivialized.

TL:DR All in-game activitys should require direct agent involvement during the whole process.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Arga wrote:
AeonThePiglet wrote:

I like this basic idea. Sitting in a bot watching red lasers do stuff is dull, and it steals people away from doing other stuff.

That's exactly my counter point. Not everyone wants to mine, that's OK because not everyone likes to PVP/combat, so each player can do what they please.

How is adding a second way to mine that is in all essential areas (cost, output) worse than mining a removal of mining? It's an alternative, not a replacement.

Letting one 'group' of players do (2) things "at the same time" while logged in is not balanced play. That is the PVP player gets to pew-pew AND mine in the same game space, while the miner only gets to mine.

It's unbalanced because the dedicated miner simply can't go do PVE combat, because all thier EP is in mining, while the combat pilot can simply drop a few aut-miners and do double-duty.

If you make the auto-miners EP intensive, so only miners can use them, then a corp will need fewer dedicated miners and the profession will be trivialized.

I've already addressed your complaint about PVPers, or non-miners in general, doing two things at once by saying that only miners could use miningbox due to the EP req. So problem solved.

You then claim that corps will need fewer dedicated miners because their output will be higher. Well, that's kinda dumb and also a great justification for making people mine in Arkhes and haul in Arkhes and do pretty much every industrial thing in Arkhes. After all, we'll need more dedicated miners and haulers if the indy bots go away, it must be a good thing!


TL:DR All in-game activitys should require direct player involvement during the whole process.

Like skill training? Oh, or maybe you mean Noralgis plantations? Oh oh, maybe you mean that having to go out to a can, keep it supplied with charges, haul away the results and do all of that on a Beta island isn't active involvement.

To which I reply, stuff it.


People like to build up and improve their home. Miningbox farms would allow them to do just that. Better yet, it'd create a static and highly visible asset for raiding and protecting because it is BETA exclusive -- a pvp hotspot in other words. And most importantly of all, it'd give people who want to mine -- but AFK -- a way to do it, and would allow the active mining process to be made more interactive because, hey, there's another option if you want to opt out of the interactive mining stuff.

These are massively desirable traits.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

AeonThePiglet wrote:

Oh oh, maybe you mean

I said what I meant.

AFK 'things' are bad for game play.

Let me make the similar suggestion for combat for comparison.

Auto-turret. Placed down in NPC spawn, will slowly kill and loot.

Beta Only (risk!)
Has an easily seen box (moar risk!)
Slower than default dps (reward for people doing it themselves)
Anyone looking at the box can see how full it is (WAY MOAR RISK)
Consumes ammo charges (that + boxprice makes it more expensive than standard combat , giving the peeps who want to watch laser a price advantage)
Decays after ~three days (won't have loads of them sitting around idle)
Can set a combat intensity (basically, how often you'll need to empty it)
Requires decent level of combat skills to use (keeps people from just dumping them out on pvp chars)



Advantages:

Less mindless (makes people like me more likely to generate kernels and NIC)
Less time intensive (pop and drop, pay a higher PU price for mins but less time PU)
More goodfite targets, fewer "gank teh PVE'r" targets (field of boxcombater would need a lot of haulers, meaning a gang and a pvp opportunity)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Arga wrote:

TL:DR All in-game activitys should require direct player involvement during the whole process.

This.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

And just to be clear, I don't mean it has to be 'continual' involvement, just direct and at reasonable intervals with respect to the overall time of the activity.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Arga wrote:

And just to be clear, I don't mean it has to be 'continual' involvement, just direct and at reasonable intervals with respect to the overall time of the activity.

Which is what's being suggested here. Uhdurr. Unless you think that manufacturing doesn't have enough player involvement in it, I'm not seeing the point of your argument.

33 (edited by Arga 2011-07-07 23:35:26)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

In order to control the output frequency of items, the time frames of production had to be increased to the point where it no longer makes sense to be a real-time activity.

The agent has to be continually involved, the player does not. Thanks for catching that.

And, just disagree, don't Herp/derp or 'really, really bliz'. It just detracts from your rebuttal.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Arga wrote:

And, just disagree, don't Herp/derp or 'really, really bliz'. It just detracts from your rebuttal.

Crap like this is starting to make me rethink my corp choice.

35 (edited by Juan Valdez 2011-07-08 16:29:05)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Arga wrote:

In order to control the output frequency of items, the time frames of production had to be increased to the point where it no longer makes sense to be a real-time activity.

The agent has to be continually involved, the player does not. Thanks for catching that.

And, just disagree, don't Herp/derp or 'really, really bliz'. It just detracts from your rebuttal.

Your distinction is absurd. The agent has to be continually involved? Farcical. My Indy alt can mine and build simultaneously. By your standards this should be game breaking, yet you've rationalized it away with yet another contradictory and illogical argument. Want me to take you seriously? Start making serious arguments.

Activites that mostly do not require the active involvement or attention of the player, like mining and indy in their current forms, should have a slower and more expensive version that, like the current fire and forget indy prodcton lines, is utterly devoid of player involvement. They should also have faster and cheaper mini game style active versions that require significant player involvement.

In essence, provide indy players with a choice between active or passive engagement and stop accepting dull and grindy activities as gameplay out of some sort of ridiculous reactionary zeal.

Edit: I've never concealed that this is my Indy alt, so yes this is my Indy alt in case you were wondering. Dunno why I'm logged in as him, but this srs poastin is killing his rp personality!!!!

36 (edited by Crepitus 2011-07-08 16:47:39)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

i'm all for both the turrets and the auto miners. 

bring on the player built stuffs, have them be on beta and killable and have people have to come out and get the stuff as well as disable field teleporters on beta (that they work on beta is ridiculous and kills a ton of risk and foot traffic that would otherwise be necessary).

i'm sick of 8 hour mining shifts.  i'm sick of npc farming shifts.  *** both; i wanna pvp and that's the only reason i have a production account and a mining account to support my pvp.

mr nex (i've been up nearly 24 hours forgot your name sorry ;P), you have to understand you're arguing with an industrialist who has decided his personal mini game is filling the market and who doesn't pvp in a pvp game. 

he thinks it's perfectly reasonable that he should have to farm millions of npcs for kernels and countless hours in ore fields to have decent production.  that's fine.  not all of us want that. 

apparently he hasn't seen the part where he's forcing his vision on other people while you're just providing an alternative option to boredom.

the various nerfs to production make it more and more job-like with every step and less less fun to maintain (but you have no choice unless your corp is carrying you).

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

I just don't get it. Mining is as dull as it gets. Why are people against a passive version that provides a more expensive and higher risk option for gathering, as well as a more active and interesting as well as cheaper and speedier option? Why is it ok for market and production stuff to be totally hands off, but mining has to be stupidly dull and yet player attention required?

I mean, would people really hate it if the devs kept the current production line indy option but also implemented a minigame version that involved putting puzzles together or something for a lower cost and higher throughput? Or market minigames that let you evade tax after reading up on the bio of the listing agent and running through a persuasion game? It seems like a great way to provide additional content for people who love doing indy or market stuff full time, while also catering to those who see it as a needless distraction from the godly work of making people go boom.

And I definitely agree that the ratting system needs to be improved to make it more engaging. Involved and complex daily quests instead of missions, as I posted in another thread, would be way more fun than going out, grinding rats and selling the poop they fart out. Why is that so controversial?

Damn it, this is a game. I already have a real job -- albeit one that I love that involves selling bandwidth and going to cons. I like making things and mining and selling, but I don't like the boredom of watching redbeams until my hold is full and then emptying it or hitting the build button and waiting ten hours for the bacon. Lemme do something more interesting when I'm in the mood to craft, mine, trade or mission! But leave in the option for an afk version that I can do with minimal involvement while I'm away at events or busy running ops as I do every saturday! Well, except for mission running, that'd be silly and I'll be the first to admit it. Better to replace rat grinding with energy towers that can be disabled through pvp action.

Just don't have the afk version also require me to stare at the screen until my eyes bleed and I want to murder people with the stupid!

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

I'd love mini games for mining and PVE farming, and bring on the puzzels! If you can get 'theme-parked' stuff like that into the game I would have your children smile

Suggestions like those are the complete opposite of introducing automated items to the game however.

I've suggested smaller higher yeild ore fields, look back over my past posts and you'll see me praising the patch that increases the yeild per cycle by 50% because it allowed miners to spend less time mining for the same result. I think they could take it even further.

Games are meant to be played but that doesn't mean it has to be non-stop action, this isn't a PVP only game (team-fortress is that way --->, or maybe that way <----, I get turned around in here), it's a sandbox. I'm not trying to force the game to be what I want it to be, mining is totally optional for individual's, although its mandatory overall. Some players like mining though, they like sitting around talking socially and occasionally emptying thier cargos and don't consider it psychosis inducingly dull. So really asking for non-attended devices, not even AFK ones, is effecting how miners like to play the game.

I would seriously cry with joy for a more involved crafting and mining experience, but since I and many other industrialists don't PVP, I will resist any suggestion that negatively effects how I like to play simply to enhance how someone else likes to play.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

The more expensive part is the key, you can just do some loops with transport mission and they drop a few auto-miners and get back to transport missions. Or other dull ways to get NIC for the autominer. Before that happens I want this to stop.

Would love a mining mini-game! big_smile As long it's not a stupid catchpa ;P

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Arga wrote:

I'd love mini games for mining and PVE farming, and bring on the puzzels! If you can get 'theme-parked' stuff like that into the game I would have your children smile

Suggestions like those are the complete opposite of introducing automated items to the game however.

I've suggested smaller higher yeild ore fields, look back over my past posts and you'll see me praising the patch that increases the yeild per cycle by 50% because it allowed miners to spend less time mining for the same result. I think they could take it even further.

Games are meant to be played but that doesn't mean it has to be non-stop action, this isn't a PVP only game (team-fortress is that way --->, or maybe that way <----, I get turned around in here), it's a sandbox. I'm not trying to force the game to be what I want it to be, mining is totally optional for individual's, although its mandatory overall. Some players like mining though, they like sitting around talking socially and occasionally emptying thier cargos and don't consider it psychosis inducingly dull. So really asking for non-attended devices, not even AFK ones, is effecting how miners like to play the game.

I would seriously cry with joy for a more involved crafting and mining experience, but since I and many other industrialists don't PVP, I will resist any suggestion that negatively effects how I like to play simply to enhance how someone else likes to play.


Building stuff in production lines does not involve the player.

The more expensive part is the key, you can just do some loops with transport mission and they drop a few production lines and get back to transport missions. Or other dull ways to get NIC for the production lines. Before that happens I want this to stop.

Why do you guys not get that your argument makes no sense in the face of production lines that require nothing more than PUSH BUTAN RECEIVE BACON MINUS INPUTS.

Your indy character can already do two things at once. In fact, my indy character can be building 50 things at once. FIFTY. While mining. Or doing courier missions. Or whatever else I feel like doing.

Autominers as I have conceived them are no different than a production line except that they would be BETA ONLY. They consume charges. Their output needs to be moved to a market. They take time to cook. And they do not need the player microing them.

Why does this confuse you guys?

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

I already addressed production lines, it's not a real-time activity and it would be utterly stupid to try and make someone stay logged in for 7 days to personally monitor a run of heavy mechs. Also mining and producing use a completely different set of extensions and EP focus, so the generalization of 'indy' player is misused in your comparison.


Autominers as I have conceived them are no different than a production line except that they would be BETA ONLY.

Mining ops on beta are time consuming and dangerous. They require a lot of resources from the combat side to secure the Island and enough miners online to make them worth it. Given the option, corps would never again organize a beta mining op (with actual miners) and would simply deploy autominers, as many and as often as needed.

Having fun is also about feeling important and needed. You can already read it in this thread, that a class of players feels that mining is just a nusince and as opposed to "the godly work of making people go boom".  Feeling that your doing something important is what gets a 'miner' through the long hours of gathering, just like PVP roamers and teleporter scouts.

So I'll say this again; changes that make players feel unneeded are just bad and undermine game morale.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Autominers would be worse in all respect than a human miner. Their output would be lower over a time period, it would cost them more per unit and they would only work in beta.

Human miners would get a NEW INTERACTIVE AND MUCH MORE FUN OPTION. Their mineral loads would be higher per time period, cheaper per unit to produce and they could work in alpha (THE ONLY PLACE YOU CAN GET TITAN HERRO) and beta. They would not be useless.

Autominers would exist solely to provide an alternative for people who want to mine but not very much, and would really prefer to be doing something else like watching TV or building. It would replace current afk mining with a legitimate and modestly more expensive alternative that just so happens to also cut bandwidth costs if the person can just log the hell off.

IF MINING WERE MADE LESS GODAWFUL BORING I WOULD MINE. Dear lord it is like you read my words and think "Oh, he hates miners." I like miners. I want their experience to not be the stupidest and most boring thing ever, but I also want to cater to the miners who want to gather minerals while watching the tube. So I want to implement OPTIONS. TWO OF THEM. One that is fun, interactive and requires you to pay attention while pooping out minerals. The other lets you fill it up and forget it so that you could watch the tube.

How do I reorient these words so that they make sense to you, because you clearly do not understand what I am on about. I do not hate miners. I hate that mining is essentially me watching a cutscene of redbeam and can filling.

43 (edited by Rodger Wilcoe 2011-07-08 23:23:57)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

AeonThePiglet wrote:

I just don't get it. Mining is as dull as it gets.

For you. If it is so dull, then don't mine and leave it to those who don't find it "dull".

Why are people against a passive version

I'm personally against any kind of "passive" system. Don't mention production lines again because that is a completely different mechanism.

Why is it ok for market and production stuff to be totally hands off, but mining has to be stupidly dull and yet player attention required?

Because they are totally different things? This isn't Rock-Paper-Scissors, where each profession and task is required to be equal in every way.

I like making things and mining and selling, but I don't like the boredom of watching redbeams until my hold is full and then emptying it or hitting the build button and waiting ten hours for the bacon. Lemme do something more interesting when I'm in the mood to craft, mine, trade or mission!

So you want the entire game to change to suit you? You do realise there are other people besides yourself?

AeonThePiglet wrote:

NEW INTERACTIVE AND MUCH MORE FUN OPTION.

Your opinion.

Autominers would exist solely to provide an alternative for people who want to mine but not very much, and would really prefer to be doing something else like watching TV or building

What next, automated combat bots that rat/mission "to provide an alternative for people who want to rat/mission but not very much, and would really prefer to be doing something else like watching TV or building?"

It would replace current afk mining with a legitimate and modestly more expensive alternative that just so happens to also cut bandwidth costs if the person can just log the hell off.

Not everyone AFK mines. Also who are you to decide which method is more "legitimate" than the other? The game is designed to be played, not "set and forget".

IF MINING WERE MADE LESS GODAWFUL BORING I WOULD MINE.

It is not all about you. If you find mining boring, then don't mine. Leave it to people who enjoy it.

I also want to cater to the miners who want to gather minerals while watching the tube

Lazy.

One that is fun, interactive and requires you to pay attention while pooping out minerals.

Hang on, I thought you said mining is as boring as batshit and that your alternative is the "fun/hip/cool" version?

I hate that mining is essentially me watching a cutscene of redbeam and can filling.

Did you ever mine in EVE?

-----

Considering mining and industry is probably the foundation for a lot of elements in the game, I'm against making it "easier" without good reason because in reality it will affect more than simply mining. So far in my opinion there hasn't been a good reason.

44 (edited by Arga 2011-07-08 23:28:32)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

How can I change my words around to say that miners don't mind watching red lasers. You don't hate miners you just hate mining, but mining is what miners do.

I find PVP so frustrating that I don't do it, the problem is that I lose. I'm not being facitious, I'm a terrible loser and I tend to break keyboards when I die. This is my problem, I don't need the game to give me an "auto-player-killer" button so that I can enjoy PVP, I'll just avoid it. I don't mind watching red lasers, and my keyboard feels safer.

I think we can agree that we would both rather be doing what we enjoy, I can get behind making Mining more enjoyable (how about green lasers), just not something that replaces mining - even as a poor substitute.

Edit: Posted the same time as Rodger, sorry some of the points got repeated.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Mining in eve is so dull and easy a macro can do it. Most people who mine in eve do something else while it is on the screen. You live in a fantasy world where this grindy and dull task is somehow anything other than grindy and dull, despite your opinion being decidedly in the minority. A common request of miners in eve is that mining be made as interesting as combat is by adding active mods or the potential to burn out your lasers through overdrive or countless other suggestions that boil down to anything but the current eve mining system because it is a miserable afk-able waste of time.

It boggles my mind that you are against turning the current system into something that requires more player involvement than push butan receive bacon, but there it is.

I really hope you are trolling me. It would make me very happy to find that out.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Arga wrote:

How can I change my words around to say that miners don't mind watching red lasers. You don't hate miners you just hate mining, but mining is what miners do.

I find PVP so frustrating that I don't do it, the problem is that I lose. I'm not being facitious, I'm a terrible loser and I tend to break keyboards when I die. This is my problem, I don't need the game to give me an "auto-player-killer" button so that I can enjoy PVP, I'll just avoid it. I don't mind watching red lasers, and my keyboard feels safer.

I think we can agree that we would both rather be doing what we enjoy, I can get behind making Mining more enjoyable (how about green lasers), just not something that replaces mining - even as a poor substitute.

Edit: Posted the same time as Rodger, sorry some of the points got repeated.

Well, first off like everyone else you're invited on the nex pvp roam this Saturday. They're fun, social and while we lose we don't lose much. I'm of the DF view that says losing is fun and how you learn, and I enjoy the teamwork involved. Also I have a strict no screaming if someone *** up policy so you won't get yelled at if you ask questions or make mistakes; safe zone matters to me!

What do you like about the current mining system. And how would you say it is fundamentally different from production? In my view, they're both a single button press followed by a time period followed by output of some kind.

The only thing I like about the current system is the way it forces teamwork. A hauler and several miners can have a decent time coordinating things; not pvp levels of coord, but still. Adding to that enjoyment by having to manage laser heat and subtargeting to improve yield. I want to base it more around player skill than just passive watching. Then I'd be involved rather than playing DoW2 and occasionally offloading to can.

Basically, I want to play the game I have in front of me, not another one because the activity I am doing does not require my attention and involvement.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Juan Valdez wrote:

It boggles my mind that you are against turning the current system into something that requires more player involvement than push butan receive bacon, but there it is.

Ok, as long as your not talking about unattended mining, but making it more interactive is going to get pushback from the 'fence' group. Here's 3 groups, but this does not cover all the types that mine.

Group 1) Miners - listen to music, talk on vent, watching for pirates, and  keep window open because thier cargo fills up every 4 mins. Typically have high EP invested.

Group 2) Afk Miners - Tabbed out watching movies or Youtube, usually slower yeilds with 10 min cargo unload, Some EP but not main profession.

Group 3) Tabbed Miners - mining while they hunt artifacts on an alt.

Group 1 - Would accept more interactive mining if it increased yeilds, group 2 would just quietly stop mining and leave game, while group 3 already made a very vocal NO after the last mining change, but are otherwise too tabbed out to bother reading forum posts like this until it effects them.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Juan Valdez wrote:

What do you like about the current mining system. And how would you say it is fundamentally different from production? In my view, they're both a single button press followed by a time period followed by output of some kind.

The current system is just interactive enough that I keep the screen open, but it allows me to look at the market and chat.

The fundamental difference is that mining is a continious micro-reward of ore going into your cargo while production is one big reward at the end. Once production is started you have nothing til it runs it course, while mining you get a continual reward and can stop at any time.

Let me buy a back up keyboard and I'll think about a roam smile

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Arga wrote:

How can I change my words around to say that miners don't mind watching red lasers. You don't hate miners you just hate mining, but mining is what miners do.

I find PVP so frustrating that I don't do it, the problem is that I lose. I'm not being facitious, I'm a terrible loser and I tend to break keyboards when I die. This is my problem, I don't need the game to give me an "auto-player-killer" button so that I can enjoy PVP, I'll just avoid it. I don't mind watching red lasers, and my keyboard feels safer.

I think we can agree that we would both rather be doing what we enjoy, I can get behind making Mining more enjoyable (how about green lasers), just not something that replaces mining - even as a poor substitute.

Edit: Posted the same time as Rodger, sorry some of the points got repeated.


I think that's the whole point.  You *CAN* avoid PVP.  You *CAN'T* avoid MINING or KILLING NPCS unless you just want to run endless transport missions, which is worse, and once again, a *JOB* (or you're being carried by your corp on the backs of other people who ARE doing the grinding), at lower "pay" than the first two options (unless you're a newb).

I don't have the option to avoid the enormous insane grind ratio of like 10 hours to 1 of *** I don't like to do vs *** I do like to do if I want to do it. 

You don't afk mine epriton unless you want to die fast, you don't afk farm noralgis unless you want to die fast, there is no way to afk farm npcs.  Anything else is also mind numbingly inefficient (I used to mine the stuff I needed instead of the high end stuff to sell and buy what I needed) I'm speaking from the first hand experience of months of doing *** loads of industrial work so that I can pvp a little bit. 

My miner and production guy have VASTLY more time /played than my combat guy, even including npc farming stints.  I have posted multiple times that I don't think there should be no effort for obtaining stuff but the way it's set up now, as you said Arga, burns people out and just 'doing something else' for awhile doesn't really cut it.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Cerp. I'm already convinced that the solo/small corp PVP grind to fun ratio is terrible. Adding goo was a good start for giving combat oriented players a way to earn NIC to replace lost bots. I haven't seen anything else posted on how this effected that grind yet, so I don't know how well it worked.

Lots of players have 2 accounts, that's a given, but not everyone does. So the PVP player with a single non-mining account gets no benefit from making mining more profitable, and thier Grind to fun ratio remains the same.

A better area to focus on would be making combat, which the PVP players are specialized in, more viable in reducing the grind2fun so that it positively effects everyone in that category.

Alternately you can attempt to make replacing PVP equipment cheaper, but that really is hit'n miss. More ore from auto miners could drop pricing, allowing cheaper manufactoring, but right now it's Epitron that drives the market with 80% of Hmech cost being Epi based. Also, if miners hold the prices up, to actually realize the increased profit to reduce pvp2grind, then there is no savings for those PVP without mining alts.

Go too far with combat rewards and modules will get inflated because PVP can afford to pay more, which puts them right back at the same grind ratio, but now the new player with less earning potential has a worse grind.

I don't know about how the NIC part would work out, but my opinon here is that changing mining isn't going to help the PVP to grind be better. I sympathize with you , the game is highly oriented to team/large corp play, which I also know from many months of grinding. I don't know if it's compatible, balacing small and large group play, since anything you do for the little guy, just gets magnified for large corps.

hmm