1 (edited by Lana Torrin 2011-07-05 04:57:32)

Topic: Proposal: Auto-miner

So after reading a few threads on how the economy is going and not being very happy with the conclusions I have decided to try and put my 'unique' problem solving skills to task with a fix.. The most common issue I see is with the lack of the rare materials getting on to the market (and not enough of the common ones). Rather than fiddle with numbers and NPC buy orders to encourage people to put the items on the market, I have decided to attack the difficulty in obtaining them in the first place.

And so steps in the auto-miners..

How I propose these little things work is that you go out in your bot or mech and find a good mining site. Once you have located it you drop your little auto-miners and set them to task. These tiny automatic spider type robots bury themselves in to the soil and start to extract the materials they have been programed for, accumulating them in to a container on the surface. While slow, they allow the user the freedom to leave them and walk away, coming back in a few (to be balanced) hours to cart off the materials.

The details in point form:
- They are produced as a single unit just like everything else. From a game point of view the 'little robots' are for animation purposes only as they bury themselves underground to stay safe.
- They can only extract 1 ore type (either programmable when deployed or pre-programmed when being made, depending on which balances better).
- They are single use and once the timer expires they go dead, trapped beneath the earth.
- The can is on the surface and is detectable and destroyable. This needs to be balanced so they are hard to find, but not impossible.
- Only 1 group of auto-miners can be used per person at a time. There should be a skill to use it and its level can adjust the area the bots can extract from. Again depending on balancing, this could be expanded later on with other skills.
- The extraction rate and timer will need to be balanced so they extract at a much slower rate to someone standing there and extracting by hand. I would say about 1/4 the rate at a guess. The timer should be set to something like 3 or 4 hours.

So why again?

Basically this will allow people to drop an anto-miner on a beta island to mine the rare stuff and not stand there themselves risking their bot. The miner still needs to find the spot, get it in to position, start it and then come back in a few hours to collect the ore so its not 100% safe.

It also has the added advantage of allowing people on alpha islands to mine while they do something else. Plus it takes the boring bit (standing around) out of mining...

It should be noted that the rate of extraction should be significantly low enough that mining by hand produces a much better income.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Pure, utter failure of an idea.
1) Risk-free epriton mining = fail
2) Mining is already fairly mindless.
3) Take a look at EVE to see what mining bots did. Fail.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

If it becomes valuable enough people will go mine epriton for the market, otherwise people should go get it themselves.
This would only destroy the income of mining people and make beta a lot less active.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Guns nButter wrote:

Pure, utter failure of an idea.
1) Risk-free epriton mining = fail
2) Mining is already fairly mindless.
3) Take a look at EVE to see what mining bots did. Fail.

First off its not risk free by any stretch of the imagination. You still have to go and retrieve the can that's been sitting out in the open for 3 or 4 hours. Enterprising people would be sitting there waiting for you to return.

Secondly, this is pretty much the main motivation for doing this. Mining is mindless and boring. Unless there is a major mechanic change it will always be so.

Thirdly, despite what CCP tell you, the exact oppose is true. Macro miners in eve keep the economy running. Without them there would not be enough minerals mined and prices would skyrocket as normal humans cant mine for that long or in those numbers so supplies would quickly get used up. If you removed every macro from eve tomorrow supplies of minerals would dry up in a month and prices would skyrocket. (And I'm not just talking miners here, mission bots as well contribute a huge amount of minerals to eves market)

And lastly, making something 'easier' in a controlled way will usually increase its activity. You still have to go and run around on a beta island, you still have to go back and collect the goods, but you can do something in the 4 hours of not standing around looking at a nice red laser.

5 (edited by Rodger Wilcoe 2011-07-05 08:53:49)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Guns nButter wrote:

Pure, utter failure of an idea.

I concur. Risk is the point. If you are on a Beta island you should have people with you or a sufficiently equipped bot to survive.

There were always such threads in the EVE forums, wanting to reduce/eliminate risk or make the game practically play itself. Sad to see them start here.

Lana Torrin wrote:

Mining is mindless and boring.

Then don't mine. Leave it to those who enjoy it and don't want it dumbed down tongue

6 (edited by Lana Torrin 2011-07-05 08:58:00)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Rodger Wilcoe wrote:
Guns nButter wrote:

Pure, utter failure of an idea.

I concur. Risk is the point. If you are on a Beta island you should have people with you or a sufficiently equipped bot to survive.

There were always such threads in the EVE forums, wanting to reduce/eliminate risk or make the game practically play itself. Sad to see them start here.

I'm sorry you feel this way as I do only want this game to grow. This game will not grow while there is no functioning market.

Also, I resent the argument that you are trying to make. Perhaps you do not know me very well, but I am an ex eve player. I spent much of my life in eve in lowsec and am possibly the least risk adverse person in existence. Lowsec in eve is dead for the exact reason that it is TOO dangerous and any attempt to change that gets met with exactly this type of comment.

Standing in a single spot on a beta island for several hours is going to get you killed. No one is stupid enough to do it. My first day in this game I got my little noob bot and went on a world tour and do you know what I saw? I saw absolutely no one outside of the main hubs. 12 islands, 6 of them beta, and all the people logged in were congregated around 3 outposts.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Lana Torrin wrote:

This game will not grow while there is no functioning market.

The market functions fine. High-end things are expensive and rare, as they should be.

With the sudden increase in numbers it should improve. Patience.

Your suggestion does nothing to address the fact that many producers limit their sales to internal corporation markets.

Let the market balance itself out, don't artificially manipulate it.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Lana Torrin wrote:

*snip*
Thirdly, despite what CCP tell you, the exact oppose is true. Macro miners in eve keep the economy running. Without them there would not be enough minerals mined and prices would skyrocket as normal humans cant mine for that long or in those numbers so supplies would quickly get used up. If you removed every macro from eve tomorrow supplies of minerals would dry up in a month and prices would skyrocket. (And I'm not just talking miners here, mission bots as well contribute a huge amount of minerals to eves market)

*snip*

I have been on 8 hour mining ops that have supplied our corp with battleships for an entire month of war in eve. Give me hard numbers or you're just spewing more bullshit to fertilize the troll field.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Guns nButter wrote:
Lana Torrin wrote:

*snip*
Thirdly, despite what CCP tell you, the exact oppose is true. Macro miners in eve keep the economy running. Without them there would not be enough minerals mined and prices would skyrocket as normal humans cant mine for that long or in those numbers so supplies would quickly get used up. If you removed every macro from eve tomorrow supplies of minerals would dry up in a month and prices would skyrocket. (And I'm not just talking miners here, mission bots as well contribute a huge amount of minerals to eves market)

*snip*

I have been on 8 hour mining ops that have supplied our corp with battleships for an entire month of war in eve. Give me hard numbers or you're just spewing more bullshit to fertilize the troll field.

Please o please can we have a discussion without this turning in to personal insults.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Lana Torrin wrote:
Guns nButter wrote:
Lana Torrin wrote:

*snip*
Thirdly, despite what CCP tell you, the exact oppose is true. Macro miners in eve keep the economy running. Without them there would not be enough minerals mined and prices would skyrocket as normal humans cant mine for that long or in those numbers so supplies would quickly get used up. If you removed every macro from eve tomorrow supplies of minerals would dry up in a month and prices would skyrocket. (And I'm not just talking miners here, mission bots as well contribute a huge amount of minerals to eves market)

*snip*

I have been on 8 hour mining ops that have supplied our corp with battleships for an entire month of war in eve. Give me hard numbers or you're just spewing more bullshit to fertilize the troll field.

Please o please can we have a discussion without this turning in to personal insults.

Where did I make things personal? You said that bots make the eve economy run. I said prove it.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Guns nButter wrote:
Lana Torrin wrote:
Guns nButter wrote:

I have been on 8 hour mining ops that have supplied our corp with battleships for an entire month of war in eve. Give me hard numbers or you're just spewing more bullshit to fertilize the troll field.

Please o please can we have a discussion without this turning in to personal insults.

Where did I make things personal? You said that bots make the eve economy run. I said prove it.

How can it possibly NOT be the case when they ban 4000+ accounts for being macros and no noticeable drop in either ice miner bots or 0.0 ratting bots was felt. Go fly through drone regions, almost every system has a single pilot running around in it 24/7. Drones don't give bounties but do give massive amounts of minerals. The number of 24/7 bots must be well in to the 10,000+ area and you are claiming they have no effect on the economy?

I guess my argument is prove that they don't, but as this is supposed to be a thread on my proposal to buff industry in this game rather than the pros and cons of macro ratting in eve im not going to bother.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Lana Torrin wrote:

Thirdly, despite what CCP tell you, the exact oppose is true. Macro miners in eve keep the economy running. Without them there would not be enough minerals mined and prices would skyrocket as normal humans cant mine for that long or in those numbers so supplies would quickly get used up. If you removed every macro from eve tomorrow supplies of minerals would dry up in a month and prices would skyrocket. (And I'm not just talking miners here, mission bots as well contribute a huge amount of minerals to eves market)

LOL.

The effect of having bots is to imbalance the game in favour of the side that uses them. If both sides use them then there is no advantage, you just remove a chunk of the game that other people may enjoy. Why not just put credits in your account or get a new mech each time you login?

There is meant to be a cost to losing your stuff or getting better stuff, that cost is the time it takes you earn.

13 (edited by Norrdec 2011-07-05 10:57:49)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

It's possible that the bots have an effect on the economy - botters don't need to buy the minerals from the market that way. Like you said, banning the bots and macroes, didn't hit the economy - because they are already beyond it.
Automining is bad mkay? It can be dull at times, but yesterday or the day before we had a BIG epriton mining op. CHAOS decided to mess up our day and we had to defend the mining op and the island AND the can with over 2000u of epi. We had FUN defending the can and the OP and all what we hold dear. Kudos to CHAOS for giving us some PVP and coming to the island!
Even alpha mining is getting tricky at times is it roaming gangs, artifacts or people deliberately dragging mobs to miners.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Mining is a profession in this game, and some players take it seriously and enjoy the challenge of setting up bots and take pride in Yeild/Hour.

"Auto-miner" in the title says it all. You could extend this to "Auto-production" or "Auto-PVP". There's room in the game for improvements to any activity, but none of them should promote the ability to do them AFK. The idea is that players 'play' the game, and that the game makes it somewhat enjoyable to do so. There has to be a balance however in HOW players play, it's not reasonable to expect a game to keep you entertained for 100 hours a week.

When mining gets boring, switch to another activity, like artifact scanning.

A common mistake I saw at launch was Player Burn-out. Any activity that is repeated for hours/weeks is going to result in players looking for ways to avoid doing them, or to avoid the game entirely. But automating them removes the enjoyment of the activity for players that have not burned out on it.

tl;dr - Mining allows players to be semi-afk already, which strikes a good balance between the time invested and the level of effort required. Some tweaking either way may be needed, but automation moves it much to far toward AFK.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

I for one think that 'mining' or 'farming' is a bad game mechanic. Rewarding someone for being bored or AFK isnt good for the game as it isnt fun. I get your point about some people enjoying it which is why I said doing it by hand should bring in far more reward, and I get your point about 'auto' being bad which is why I said the timer should be 3 or 4 hours (long enough so you have to actually dedicate some time to it, but not long enough so you can set it up log off and go out for the day). It also frees the player up to go and actually DO stuff during that 3 or 4 hours (like PvP).

If you combine it with non-static ore fields (something someone asked for in another thread) it becomes a great tool to combat the macro miner (which we don't currently have, but as the game expands WILL become a problem like it has in every other MMO ever invented).

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Considering the nice bot friendly color code and long lasting deposits, the only reason there aren't macros available already is because the game community is still small. Pre-empt it by evening the ground between bots and people may not actually be a bad idea.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

It's bad for you maybe. If mining will be so risk free and almost work free, why not just get the robots from NPC sell orders? It's going to be connected with NIC anyway.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Make it alpha only.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

For competing with miners this is hard to balance so, no. Maybe in future to build POS and related items with new materials not connect to bot/module production it could work, like under ground tunnels where these new resources can be found.

RIP PERPETUUM

20 (edited by Norrdec 2011-07-06 15:11:40)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Like building that mines and that can be destroyed? Maybe, just maybe that could work.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

This would allow corps to function with very few resource extraction specialists.  Every PvP build in the corp goes out and drops one or two of these auto-miners everyday; they cover their resource needs easily. 

This would undermine(no pun intended) all of the effort people put into constructing a balanced and efficient corporation.  To make actions automated would make self reliance more of a factor and would thus be counter intuitive insofar as the wider Perpetuum mode of operations is concerned; that is to say safety in numbers.

Sociorum, inimicos, omnes

-:does speak for NSA on the forums:-

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Definitely a no to that. There is already too few things a player can spend their time on in-game at the moment. This would just make "miners" log in, pop auto-miners, log out, play Minecraft/APB/whatever, log in and haul it back, making them unavailable for any other impromptu corp ops.

Maybe it's something that can be looked at in the future when we get constructables though.

This is my blob. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Things just get 'fuzzy' when things in the game happen that don't directly involve an agent, and their associated extensions.

Having a POS mining tower that provides bonuses to miners, still requires an agent. A stand-alone structure becomes an NPC when it can perform in game actions like a player; such as mining or cannon defense.

Any NPC actions that replace player functions need to be very closely balanced if they are implemented. Not saying either way is better or worse, only that 'replacing' players with structures can lead -ultimately- to a situation where players are not required; and in the short-term certainly where less players are needed to accomplish the same action.

24 (edited by Celebro 2011-07-06 23:22:10)

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Arga wrote:

Things just get 'fuzzy' when things in the game happen that don't directly involve an agent, and their associated extensions.

Having a POS mining tower that provides bonuses to miners, still requires an agent. A stand-alone structure becomes an NPC when it can perform in game actions like a player; such as mining or cannon defense.

Any NPC actions that replace player functions need to be very closely balanced if they are implemented. Not saying either way is better or worse, only that 'replacing' players with structures can lead -ultimately- to a situation where players are not required; and in the short-term certainly where less players are needed to accomplish the same action.


Good point never thought of it that way. What if these structures require refueling and loads of different resources to build that will involve the player in the equation.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Proposal: Auto-miner

Resources are something, another way is to require a player to be docked with the POS, and the POS takes on the players' attributes. Docking would bring up a 'terminal' type view, where the player could place modules and manage storage, etc. But in addition to the 'delpoy' button, would be an activate button. This would bring you to a terrain view, with the Module UI being that of the POS instead of your bot.

Larger POS could hold multiple players, so for defenses, you may have POS turret with 3 combat players activated in it, each controlling modules with range/dmg based on the agents extensions.