Topic: 25% trash

Okay, Devs, look into this...

After talking with a lot of industrial folks I've learned that, once a CT reaches around 40% efficiency it's pretty much producing at a loss just in materials alone versus NPC material costs on the market (much less player seeded materials which are even cheaper) and just gets pulled and trashed.

So, if you would, look into the CT drops from high end artifact results.  No, I'm certainly not asking for 75% CTs like candy, nothing of the sort.  But these 25% drops are pretty much trash to be left behind because even maxxed out builders can't produce them, the cost in waste is just pointless.

How about shifting them to 45%, 60%, and 75% respectively.  That way even the lowest end CTs have a few runs of profitability before they're trash (40% seems to be the cutoff point, as stated, though that is not an exact line).

2 (edited by Gharl Incognito 2011-07-03 08:45:05)

Re: 25% trash

This is one point I must agree with.  A science three site is always a great thing to see on your scanner and opening it up to see the Mk2 CTs used to be great.  However, with the huge influx of players the market has been swamped and CT's below 50/50 are really not worht having.  I would rather find a few high end decoders and uber-rare Niani components then a 25/25 CT that will never sell or be viable for production.

Yes I know you can still build with them but with the volume of CTs hitting the market it makes more sense to simply wait for a better CT to appear on the market then to use a 25/25.

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Re: 25% trash

this is the first post i have to agree.

the 25% CTs are crap, they are probably even less worth then flawed equip

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: 25% trash

CTs could use a combination option. Combine two 30% CTs and get a 50% CT. Make sure you get less return the higher the CT level so it's not worth it until you've got about 4 or 5 20% to 40% CTs.

Decoders also need this option and then you can greatly increase the drop rate of lower equipment and it adds a NIC sink that outposts can return 50% of. smile

Re: 25% trash

Why is this a problem? I get damaged goods farming NPCs all the time (not to mention the mission-only stuff). Some aren't worth repairing and just get recycled or left where they fall. It happens in trading and mining, too where you find a sweet spot in the markets and suddenly it disappears, so you're forced to move on or accept diminishing returns.

Frankly, it's totally fine that crap CTs show up, even regularly. It's at least a little more realistic than guaranteed usable/profitable drops. The devs shouldn't count bad CTs as valuable when examining balance between professions, though.

Perpetuum has an in-game free market. It should have an effect on the various professions for it to be meaningful. If drops and manufacturing efficiency and assignment rewards are constantly adjusted so that all professions make similar amounts of money at all times, then the market becomes much less meaningful as a game element. It should instead be a driving force, pushing people in new directions as it shifts.

Re: 25% trash

CTs are not regular drops, even with Science III sites, which themselves are not popping up left-right-and-center.  And when you pin one down only to get a few moderately useful items and a 25% stack of waste paper it really tends to leave a sour taste behind.

If they started at 45% a highly skilled industrial person/corp could produce them at a reasonable return, a few times, before the CT was scrap.  60% and 75% would just increase their usability.  More usable CT's = more affordable Mk2 bots (though honestly I'm not enamored of more slots but no higher fitting stats or... anything else to make them a 'bit more' than a stock Mk1) = more people using them for their PvP fix beyond massive industrial blobs.

With a 25% CT you could build your bot, recycle it, and still have enough mats to build it again with a 50% CT...  the waste is *that* enormous.

Re: 25% trash

Alexander wrote:

CTs could use a combination option. Combine two 30% CTs and get a 50% CT. Make sure you get less return the higher the CT level so it's not worth it until you've got about 4 or 5 20% to 40% CTs.

Decoders also need this option and then you can greatly increase the drop rate of lower equipment and it adds a NIC sink that outposts can return 50% of. smile

+1
DEVs, that is nice stuff!

Re: 25% trash

The RE screen could be used, allow (2) Ct's to be placed in the drag-n-drop, and then present the resulting CT. It would use an RE slot and require time to do.

Here are some 'balance' negatives to offset this process as I could see this becoming an easy way to 'eek' a few more runs out of normal CT's without having to sacrifice another prototype; that is combining (2) T4 LWF CT's and get a 3rd set of runs without needing to make another T4 LFW prototype.

- A fixed % in material reduction to higher, like 5%
- Does not effect the % to time, highest used
- CT's less then 25% and more than 80% would be invalid.

So if you where to RE a 50/50 CT and a 75/75 CT; The result would be 80/75.
while a 25/25 CT and 75/75 would also be 80/75 too.

But a 25/25 and a 25/25 would be 30/25, and you could keep going until you hit 80/25.

For decoders, same thing, but it would be 10-1 and decoders above X would be invalid. Where X is the current highest level decoder required, which I think is 8 currently?

9 (edited by Cyber Moose 2011-08-07 18:10:27)

Re: 25% trash

I suggest using this formula in the combination of 2 cts.

hct=ct with the highest %
lct=ct with the lowest %
nct=new ct %
bp=base percentage, im thinking maybe 10%
eb=the bonus from a new extension for this process
ext=lvl of said extension

nct=hct+(lct*(bp+(ext*eb))

example:
.25+(.25*(.1+(10*.01))=.3

With lvl 10 extension you would have to add 15 25% cts to another 25% ct to get a 100% ct.That's the extreme, adding 5 25% to a 75% is not so bad. Sure that is a lot of cts for just one 100% but its better than just throwing them away.

Re: 25% trash

If that max CT you could combine was 25% that would be ok. Otherwise you can combine a semi-expenisve 75% with a less expensive 64% to get a very valuable 88% CT, or (2) 75%'s for  90% which is very desirable for hmechs (because of the large material requirements).

Re: 25% trash

Arga wrote:

If that max CT you could combine was 25% that would be ok. Otherwise you can combine a semi-expenisve 75% with a less expensive 64% to get a very valuable 88% CT, or (2) 75%'s for  90% which is very desirable for hmechs (because of the large material requirements).

I am new, so you definitely know a lot more about this game and industry than I do. What your saying makes sense if you used the current value of cts. But wouldn't the values of the cts change if they added this. This would definitely change prices around but would it throw things out of balance? And when I say balanced I mean would it fit into the game without ruining everything that will still exist after this system is in place. Not will prices stay the same as the old ct system. From what I can tell they are changing things all the time that are effecting the worth of things in the game. So Arga I have a question I can't really answer myself because I don't know every detail of the game yet. Would this mess up things outside of the ct system?

Re: 25% trash

The more complex an item is, the higher the minimal decoder is needed. The best decoder there is at this time is a level 10, so there is a mechanical upper limit to the % CT that can be created.

The impact of better CT's is they use less material in the mass production process. This mean either less mining for self suffcient corps or lower manufactoring costs for corps building for profit.

The price of level 9 and 10 decoders means that very few are used except for the large cost runs (typically hmechs). Sure it now takes (2) heavy mechs to create 1 better CT, but when you can make 10 units per run and save 15% on each, your actually making them cheaper.

I don't believe the concept of this idea was to create a way to reduce the material cost, but to combine new and old CT's together to get a little more value out of the initial investment.

I'm not sure that itself is a good idea, but when it comes to MKII ct's that can't be created, only discovered, the 25% ones really have no particular value, and being able to combine multiples of them into a useable CT seems like a good mechanic. But again, I don't think even with this that being able to combine (2) 75% MK II CT's into a 90% CT is the right direction.

What ongoing effect would better CT's have? It's difficult to say, but without a cap on the top end, the cycle of mass producing ever cheaper bots simply for CT's could be exploited at worst, and cause an upset in raw material pricing at a minimum. I don't feel that there is an issue with TOP end CT %'s, but if there is that should be addressed directly and not coming sideways at it with regenerative CT recycling.

Re: 25% trash

btw, im still trying to find cheap 25% light bot CTs... i would pay 100k each (thats more then they are worth)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear