1 Topic by Prophet Six (edited by Prophet Six 2011-06-16 21:27:35)

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Topic: Catching up is hard to do

Warning, wall of text!

I've been playing for about a month now and I'm enjoying the game quite a bit. I've played some stEVE and enjoyed the sandbox aspect of it, but it was daunting knowing that I had little chance at defeating someone who had subbed 3 years earlier, even if equipment and player skill was equal. I hopped into PO because I like the setting better and the EP model better.

Point is, (read title).

I know, I know, that's the nature of the game, but it made knowing that I could never really catch up a bit depressing. In more traditional MMO's you hit level cap and then you at least have a chance in a 1vs1 setting (discounting the gear and experience of the older player). In a traditional MMO you are rewarded for playing the game; you don't kill stuff (or quest), you don't level up. I don't want a traditional MMO, that's why I play PO.

In PO, I enjoy the fact that I no longer need to train a skill to progress and in the event of being offline for a few days, there's no penalty like missing another skill in your queue.

But the problem I see with that is as the game gets older and older, the gap between new subscribers and the existing playerbase is going to keep growing, eventually causing the original players to be practically unbeatable, due to the vast amount of EP they will have and depth of skillset. This was mitigated a bit in EVE, when players took time off, there was the potential that they weren't skilling up, but as long as they left with a long skill in the queue and popped back in occasionally, they're still skilling up.

So in PO, I feel that there is a pretty decent gap between an original subscriber from when the game began and now, making things that much more daunting to the newbie player. I'm not advocating eliminating this gap at all; those who got in on the beginning should be rewarded for doing so. But after finding out that players initially got a 40k EP start and now it's a 20k start, I feel that that is a counter-productive strategy when fresh subscribers realize that.

I believe it's also causing a bit of an issue with new subscribers initially feeling like they "matter" in PVP. Yes, I know, "specialize" and all is good. Except it's not. Many new players are not going to know to specialize and aren't necessarily going to like that they need to use their only free reset to fix their account. They could get another trial, but then they are that much further behind, EP-wise. I know others are addressing the new player experience in other threads, so I won't go further on that.

On to possible solutions for this "gap", one or more of these could be implemented:

1. Bonus EP for SUBSCRIBING. I understand that you get a starting amount, but that 20k is essential to even kill anything within 1k of the starting outposts. This amount could change for a promotion period or maybe as the gap between new and old gets bigger. I'm not advocating an equal amount of the difference between the old and the new players here (or maybe I am tongue, j/k)

2. Bonus EP for time spent IN GAME. Not for subscription length, but for hours played. Not necessarily a large amount, but hours played EP bonus milestones might keep more peeps playing, and reward those that do with a little "thank you". This would be trackable, of course. The problem with this is that the older players would get this too, but maybe have a monthly cap on how much could be attained.

3. Bonus EP for milestones, kind've like achievements, e.g. 1 bijillion ore mined, 10,000 successful ECM's, 10, 20, 50, 100 kills, etc. Again, same issue as above, but at least you're rewarding those who PLAY.

As it is, it's tempting to do as a few already have admitted, sub and log in occasionally, spend EP, wait; until they hit that magic EP threshold where they feel they can compete, or they're wating for changes regarding player population, quality of life, etc.

TL:DR I'm having fun in game, but I feel a new player may not sub, especially from another more traditional MMO, if there's the perception that they can't catch up.

I await the dissection of my post and the trolls.

Edited: Grammer and spelling.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

The first premise of this is that EP is the ruling factor in the game.
I don't see this really, it can be almost completely mitigated by gear and tactics.
That is to say, after a point, a new player will just not drive a heavy mech appropriately for awhile. After that however, I think you can be about as good as the others.

If EP is really going to drive a gap, than that gap can only go as far as lvl 10 in all relevant extensions.

3 Reply by Prophet Six (edited by Prophet Six 2011-06-16 22:09:23)

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Point taken, but as a new player, are they going to know this? And how long is it going to take before they can compete in a heavy?

Also, another issue is that unless you specialize you can't compete (not saying that this shouldn't be the case).

But, that means you need to have another account to experience another facet of the game (indy, if you're combat and vice-versa) without "wasting" EP in the first account.

That may be accepted by an EVE player, but is also a bit hard to swallow for someone new to the genre... but this may more more a "respec" issue than an EP issue.

EDIT: Quick calculation: Getting 18 skills for a (combat specced agent) blue heavy to level 9 + Nav 10 is 358 days. A year from now, many players could be there easily. Is a newbie going to enjoy hearing that it's going to take that long to be on equal footing (with a heavy specced agent)? Yes, tactics, yes gear, but EP is going to be a huge factor for a long time for that newbie, and maybe they don't wait that long.

I'm just saying it could be more daunting, further on down the line.

4 Reply by Arga (edited by Arga 2011-06-17 04:20:38)

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Wll-o-text removed

Lastly, new players did not start with 50k EP. Every account started with 20k, only Early Adopter accounts got an extra 30K if you signed up BEFORE the release of the game. So only a small minority of players had the 50k boost, me as well as anyone else that signed up after launch, got the same 20k.

I'm sure it won't surprise you to know the first month there were a ton of complaints about how the 50k accounts had such a huge advantage, and "why can't I have the extra 20k, I'll never catch up".

So, I'll agree. Its mathmatically impossible for you to catch up.

However, play the game for 60 days then post back here, and let us know if you still can't be competitive.

Oh, 1 last thing though - this isn't a 1 v 1 game; its rock-paper-scissors. That is the game isn't balanced around 2 bots battling it out and if your rock fighting paper, your at a disadvantage regardless of EP level.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

The main point here is that the EP gap is only going to grow. It's impossible to close the distance. Yes, eventually you'll cap out a skill. However, the base effectiveness of a 1.5 year-old account vs the base effectiveness of a 6 month old account are extreme.

I'm just offering the perspective of a new player that can see the difference and I don't envy those who try out this game 1 year from now and find that it's tough to compete with an account 1-1.5  years older. And by compete, I'm not only referring to PVP. An older account can farm more in a smaller amount of time, be it ore or ratting, so the resource gap grows as well.

My suggestions are for the possibility of closing those gaps. If there is no need to do that, so be it. But I think the gap will matter and that new players may eventually be scared off by it.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Well the thing is, the difference between some level 8/9 and level 9/10 skills in EP is quite huge, the bonus us only a few percent. So we see one months worth of EP granting you only a bonus of 2-3%. It isnt a huge bonus.

I've just come back from a Hiatus, wherein I left some of my subs cancelled...kicking myself for the loss of EP, but then again, it isnt the be all and end all.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Read both of these rather long threads started just a month(ish) after game release.

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … s-a-20ker/

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … w-players/

8 Reply by Neoxx (edited by Neoxx 2011-06-17 02:51:21)

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

The only way people (noobs specifically) will understand that EP isnt everything is when people like you stop preaching that it IS everything and you'll never be as good as everyone playing longer than you.

The EP cost curve is enormous, as you probably know if you've gotten any complex skill past 7, where the EP gain and skill gain is linear.  Obvious conclusion is obvious.


Also, since we've had sensing/masking, theres a much bigger role for the smaller bots in sneaking/detecting roles, and they dont take that much EP to get good at.  If you're really that worried about "catching up" to the old players, try taking a path that doesnt take as much EP to get really good at.



EDIT:  I can also speak from the new player perspective back during beta.  I was up against the dreadnoughts (literally and figuratively) that had been playing for many many months when I started, but that didnt keep me from trying to fight them.  Yes, they certainly had the advantage 1v1, but if you use proper tactics and can assess situations (5v5 but oh *** they have high extensions so GTFO) you can still be effective with less EP.

The game certainly isn't any less fun just because there's people with more EP than you.  If you say otherwise you are only showing how little you've actually played this game.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

So just to drive the 'exponential' point home, I'll give you an exact scenerio how a miner that started 90 days before me could 'catch up'.

Industrial level 8, Siting in a Riveler mining. I decide I want to own a Riveler MK II, requirement to sit in a MK II, Industrial level 10.

I start saving EP - 37,000 minutes later I click on Indy level 9. What did I get for that click... 1% less CPU useage for mining/harvester modules. I start saving again - 64,500 minutes later, I click on Indy level 10. An extra 1% CPU savings, and I can now own a MK II.

That's 70 days. Meanwhile it took only 30 days for the new player to get to a Riveler.

What do you get for 70 days, an extra head and leg slot, plus 10% yield. If you can manage to buy a T4 Indy tuner for that slot, you can now get 20% more yield.

... Just a side note, Riv MK II - totally worth it. The additional leg slot also lets you put in another acc recharger so you can speed up the cycle time. And you also get to lock a 5th target, so 1 per laser, very nice when all 5 lasers stop empty out red blocks at the same time. Get yours now on the market while they are still available wink

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

It takes something about 1,5 - 2 years to raise all your combat extensions to 10. After that, you will not see any difference between old and young player in that role. Just wait wink

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

I will just say to a certain point EP is over rated. You can always specialize in a certain extension and surpass most players in skill.

Btw catching up is not hard its impossible by all means tongue

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Celebro wrote:

I will just say to a certain point EP is over rated. You can always specialize in a certain extension and surpass most players in skill.

Btw catching up is not hard its impossible by all means tongue

hmm, all extensions are capped at lvl10 - and you dont need all extensions for eg. combat.

so catching up is possible... but trying to catch up with the most time expensive specialization route (heavy mk2 mech) would take rather long.

like many pointed out already, the topic starter took "lvl9" in all related extensions for his example, which is already using more EP then you gain from it.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: Catching up is hard to do

I think one person touched the right point but didn't elaborate.


This game is not designed for solos. It is designed for groups (known as corporations) to flourish and complement each other's skill sets. Sure, Lemon can barge onto your island and be damned near indestructible, but a couple of light bots with ewar can shut him down just as surely as if he weren't even there.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Annihilator wrote:
Celebro wrote:

I will just say to a certain point EP is over rated. You can always specialize in a certain extension and surpass most players in skill.

Btw catching up is not hard its impossible by all means tongue

hmm, all extensions are capped at lvl10 - and you dont need all extensions for eg. combat.

so catching up is possible... but trying to catch up with the most time expensive specialization route (heavy mk2 mech) would take rather long.

like many pointed out already, the topic starter took "lvl9" in all related extensions for his example, which is already using more EP then you gain from it.

By that time there will be other extensions to worry about so you will most probably be playing catch up. By impossible I meant EP accumulation you cannot have more than the first player that has joined game.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Check out the new patch notes... there are more extensions being added all the time and modules being updated. OP mentioned 18 extensions, but that's not even close to how many different extensions that you need to be improving for PVP; consider that ECCM was basically useless before but now seems like it will be used much more. There are also a slew of light/assault changes to improve those bots. The majority of advanced EP players have been spending EP on, well, advanced robotics and med weapons. Also see Mara's post about light/assaults taking out mechs. So for new players, it is probably an advantage to 'hang out' in the light/assault extensions longer and still be competitive against mechs and hmechs that require a much larger amount of EP to operate.

The early days of minimal EP into lights/assualt and 'skipping' to hmechs is probably over for the newest wave of players. But with these changes, lights/assaults are also much more fun to play and more effective then ever.

*Note: No, your not going to kill a Hmech 1 v 1 - but the Hmech may have trouble killing you too, unless like in boxing, the heavy weight gets a solid punch in on your jaw, then you going to the mat.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Arga wrote:

Check out the new patch notes... there are more extensions being added all the time and modules being updated. OP mentioned 18 extensions, but that's not even close to how many different extensions that you need to be improving for PVP; consider that ECCM was basically useless before but now seems like it will be used much more. There are also a slew of light/assault changes to improve those bots. The majority of advanced EP players have been spending EP on, well, advanced robotics and med weapons. Also see Mara's post about light/assaults taking out mechs. So for new players, it is probably an advantage to 'hang out' in the light/assault extensions longer and still be competitive against mechs and hmechs that require a much larger amount of EP to operate.

The early days of minimal EP into lights/assualt and 'skipping' to hmechs is probably over for the newest wave of players. But with these changes, lights/assaults are also much more fun to play and more effective then ever.

*Note: No, your not going to kill a Hmech 1 v 1 - but the Hmech may have trouble killing you too, unless like in boxing, the heavy weight gets a solid punch in on your jaw, then you going to the mat.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M … ousandCuts

I concur.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

I appreciate the feedback. I enjoy this game a lot and I'm having fun. I have no problem with where I'm at resource-wise or the amount of EP I currently have.

But I do know that I HAD the perception that EP is the most important factor, and am concerned about future fresh trials/subscribers having the same perception.

What can be done in a year's time that will make a new player feel like he isn't hopelessly behind? Unless that perception can be addressed, I feel that the growth rate of new subs may be limited.

Or, maybe it's a non-issue.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Not this again. Yeah guess what if you come to the party early you have an advantage. Why do we have to turn everyhting into "No child left behind"?

If you want the EP soooo badly I am sure someone is willing to trade you an account. Ofc that's against EULA, just saying, not condoning.

In short: Suck it up, this game does not need people who want everything NOAW. You want to compete? Put in the time, like all of us. Seriously, welfare purples are THAT way --->

It's a non-issue, EVE works exactely the same and still new pople join that game and stick around. Yeah they can't be uber from day one but then again this is not the game for them then! Stop trying to pee in my sand, plx.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Well, I think it could be worthwhile to give a 100% boost to EP for the first 3 months of an account. This would help new players a bit, but still not be 'way' over the top (I also believe this should be applied retroactively to old accounts if implemented, so no one loses and it doesn't have to be a discussion on new vs old players)

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Nothing wrong with the EP progression, there will be more new players coming behind you which have less EP than you. How would you feel in 6months time when they boost their EP?


First come first serve basis works best imho, after all older players have paid more subs than you.

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21 Reply by Syndic (edited by Syndic 2011-06-19 02:43:26)

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Mmm, how about playing the game first instead of immediately worrying if you're going to be TEH BESTEST AT EVERYTHINGEST AND MOST SPECIAL UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE in the whole game? wink

Chill out brosef, enjoy the game. We all die in the end, you'll die too.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

Um, I'm not sure some peeps are getting the point of my post.
I'm fine. I have no problems with where I'm at.

My concern is new subs, and new subs alone.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

new subs that fear a challenge are probably not worth, as they wont resub very soon after.

this game does life from long term subs, not from sold packages.

you don't need to have tons of EP spent to be competitive in PvP. Also Tons of EP don't grant you superiority in a PvP situation.

Take my combat alt - im driving around a Laser Heavy mech, with a day-1 agent and i will suck at PvP regardless the lvl8 extensions i have (note: lvl8, not 9 or 10), because i'm rather unexperienced in PvP and without proper supporting group im nothing more then a (slow) walking target which can be killed by a small group of light missile bots in a short time.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

A little example. No matter how late you will come to a party with unlimited drink. You'll be drunk anyway. And at the end on party there will be no more or less drunk ppl.

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Re: Catching up is hard to do

We could tallk long about parties and drinks;
Catching up its impossible; always its.
But what this game system offers, its the possibility to eventually have the same extensions that another agent that started long time before you; more than enough imo.
Ofc no from day one, and never will have the same amount of EP or nic, or wealth than another person that played same way as you more time, but you can play more efficientlly or intensivelly than older players and beating them in the field you wish; no from day one again (that would rather be insta-gratification more than balance).
All players had to wait a week or two to ride the mech of their choice.
What i, and surelly the rest of us has noticed, its the imposibility to new players to do many things at game; no rare to see newcomers happy after subscribing with no real chances to play untill they got navigation ie to lvl 8, this its rlly bad as they will have to tune down their hype and pray that it will still be there next week when can actually start enjoying the game.
I will make a suggestion here, make somekind of a EP bank for newcomers, give the chance to spend all the ep from 2 o3 first months to newplayers at the begining of each payement. Only for the first 3 months ie, we dont want ppl buying 1 year subscription to be over from day one.