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Topic: Strange Math...

Need to change the skill descriptions (I imagine the mechanics will RTS for balancing reasons)

Never really looked too hard at the numbers before, but I'm trying to plan a build now and the numbers are driving me nuts...

Armour repair cycle time is 5% in the description...So at lvl 10 robotics....
(Base Time) * 1.05^10 = Result
Perpetuum seems to use the following...
(Base Time) * 1 / (1 + 5% * (Skill)) = Result

So... at level 10, according to the description you might expect to get 59.9% of the base time when what you actually get is 66.7%

While the formula has 5% buried inside it, you are not getting 5% like the description suggests... I can somewhat understand the difference since the two formulas are similar and the form Perpetuum uses can be simplified to... (20*Base) / (20 + Skill) = result

Maybe their approximation saves clock cycles and speeds up the game somehow, but your still losing almost 7% by level 10.

Heres more weirdness... Masking/Detection in the help file is described as...
(1000 / Enemy Masking) * (Your Detection) = Range
I haven't tested it in the field but the formula is a bit strange, why wouldn't you separate the constant? I think people would better understand the help file if it read...
(Your Detection / Enemy Masking) * 1000 = Range

When you actually equip the module things are wonky...
Description says 2%, With level 5 skill and a T3 detector (base modification is 35) I get a final modification of 48.5? Still need to test this one to figure it out but it's not anything obvious....
NOT  Base * (1 + 2% * skill) = 38.5
NOT Base% + 2% * skill = 45

Best guess at a working formula that still needs to be tested is...
Detection Modifier = Base * (1 + 2% * Skill) + 2% * Skill

If that really is it, all I can say is what in damnation is that monster of a mess and HOW does it even remotely relate to the skill description of a 2% increase? As well as, umm thanks for the extra detection range... I might have trained it sooner if I'd known what it actually does.

Anyway, love the game and appreciate all of the devs work, I think they do a great job, which includes the difficult task of balancing factions.  Thank you, but could you please drop more hints about what the skills are Really doing before I go mad trying predict how to respec.

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic
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Re: Strange Math...

Just a quick thought, when masking/detection was released I hear it was OP and then nerfed...
Maybe it was supposed to be,
Base * (1 + 5% *skill)

and somehow an extra +5% * Skill   got tagged on?

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic

3 Reply by Shaedys (edited by Shaedys 2011-05-18 10:13:27)

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Re: Strange Math...

For masking, it's the
value of your detector*(1+0.02*skill level)+0.02*skill level
T4 and level 4 this means:
50%*1.08+0.08=62% increase

This means you get more of an increase if you use a better detector.

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Re: Strange Math...

Shaedys wrote:

For masking, it's the
value of your detector*(1+0.02*skill level)+0.02*skill level
T4 and level 4 this means:
50%*1.08+0.08=62% increase

This means you get more of an increase if you use a better detector.

how do you get to that strange formula?

with that formula my t1 sandard masking or detector module would have a modifier of 22.44%  with lvl1 extension

but it has only 22.40% which is exactly base*(1+0.02*extensionlevel)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear
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Re: Strange Math...

Annihilator wrote:
Shaedys wrote:

For masking, it's the
value of your detector*(1+0.02*skill level)+0.02*skill level
T4 and level 4 this means:
50%*1.08+0.08=62% increase

This means you get more of an increase if you use a better detector.

how do you get to that strange formula?

with that formula my t1 standard masking or detector module would have a modifier of 22.44%  with lvl1 extension

but it has only 22.40% which is exactly base*(1+0.02*extensionlevel)

That's T1. For T2+ You have to double the effect it seems. smile

6 Reply by Annihilator (edited by Annihilator 2011-05-18 20:31:47)

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Re: Strange Math...

Description says 2%, With level 5 skill and a T3 detector (base modification is 35%) I get a final modification of 48.5%? Still need to test this one to figure it out but it's not anything obvious....

ok, lets see -

1,35 * 1,1 = 1,485 = 48,5%

so wheres the magical error?

oh, lets see, for math stupidity (which was the same for those who complained about the sensor amp formula)

35*1,1 + 10= 38,5 + 10 = 48,5%

so what did you do to get your strange formula?

(1+modifier)*(1+extension*lvl) = [modifier *(1+extension*lvl)]+(100%*extension*lvl)


why simple when you can do it complicated big_smile

edit: note, that the red formula is mathematical not CORRECT as you put in the values partially as x% and partially as decimals.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

7 Reply by Alexander (edited by Alexander 2011-05-18 12:04:31)

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Re: Strange Math...

Everything in this game either increases exponentially or gives diminishing returns when more are added. Some just don't make sense at all for example the damage modifier calculation:

BDM = Base Damage Modifier
RC = Robot bonuses to damage
WC = Weapon control bonus from extensions
TA = Target Analysis
DT = Damage tuning
ª = Quantity of tunings

BDM * (1 + RB + WC) * (TA+(1+DT)ª)

Plug this into an example with a Kain. T4 Gause, Advanced Robotics 8. Advanced Magnostatics 6. Target Analysis 5. 2 Tunings.

300 * (1+(0.05*8)+(0.03*6)) * ((0.01*5)+(1+0.08)²) =
300 * 1.58 * 1.2164 = 576.5%

P.s. Nice work on a simpler formula Anni.

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Re: Strange Math...

Annihilator wrote:

ok, lets see -

(1+modifier)*(1+extension*lvl)

It was late, I was frustrated, should have seen it myself. Nice work Anni!
It's still a struggle to reconcile the skill descriptions against the results.  Anywho, I think the devs have done a phenomenal job getting things to balance well but I hate wrestling with black boxes constantly as I try to plan my development (something I should have done from the outset but plan to get right before I take my respec).  One of the M2S guys put together a bot-fitting spreadsheet a  while back, maybe the community can create a similar webapp. A lot of work I suppose, and out of my skill set, though I could probably do something simple in VB.net. Maybe this summer.

"You're living in a parallel universe." ~Syndic
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Re: Strange Math...

Refining is a wonderful example of this. Extension description says 3%, but increases the ME of the refinery by 10%.

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Re: Strange Math...

ME display of the refinery is relative to the maximum possible by extension.

so your extension gives you 3% per level, max 30% at lvl10,

but with each lvl of the extension you get 10% of that 30%. It has nothing to do with the involved math.

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Re: Strange Math...

The material ratio of the refinery is about to change, we'll probably do it like 0 delta=100%, and you can go above 100% with negative delta (better refining).

The most difficult one in terms of ratio displays is the factory, where material efficiency is not only affected by your extensions and relations, but also by every single production line, which have their own efficiency values...

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Re: Strange Math...

How has the ME Ratio % calculation for the Refinery changed then???
plz tell.....

I Currently am the author of Perpetuum Fitting Tool - Continued..
EVE - bigsteve